Signet-ficant Other

Well since you intend on pulling the motor sometime in the future why not go ahead and order the more expensive Comps?


Since you mentioned pulling this before selling, a gnawing thought has me curious if this little monster motor might end up in Stretchy's wild little project Valiant.
 
Well since you intend on pulling the motor sometime in the future why not go ahead and order the more expensive Comps?
Quite simply, budget. I'm still beneath it and intend to stay that way. I don't consider this engine a "permanent situation", so to speak--if it survives, my intention is to remove the idiotic camshaft, springs, and that gear drive and build something that'll be a little more enjoyable on the street... to that end, a different engine I recently bought came with a 292/.528" MP solid cam that will probably land in this engine later.


Since you mentioned pulling this before selling, a gnawing thought has me curious if this little monster motor might end up in Stretchy's wild little project Valiant.
No. Even with the smaller camshaft, I think this engine is beyond Stretch's intentions. The heads are essentially ludicrous, needing either a bunch of cam or a bunch of RPM, or both. He's building more of a driver, meaning capable of turning, etc. As much fun as it is coming off a corner apex with a motor pulling above 6,000RPM, that's also where shit tends to break a lot. He wants a lower-maintenance car he can enjoy--preferably one where the drag link doesn't pass through the oil pan. :doh:

Even if he did want this engine as-built, that would raise the spectre of some extraordinarily-expensive underchassis headers. He's already got early A-body headers with LA port flanges and I'm pretty sure spending another $1,000 on a set with the oddball early W2 flange is not appealing to him.
 
Last edited:
OK, so shortly after getting the transmission getting done, Stretch and I had one last go at the floors, this time from beneath. More correctly, I had a go at 'em and Stretch sat at his desk and did some soul-searching regarding the amount of alcohol he'd consumed the previous evening. :D Not being around paint fumes probably benefitted him greatly at that point. Work done and photos taken October 8th, 2017.

It's important to note that I was only concerned with the sheetmetal we'd replaced. I was not scraping and stripping the whole underside of the car as this is not a restoration, I just don't want the floors to rust again. Yes, the outer rockers still have some rust. The inners are battleship-strength now, and that's what matters to me.

Though I did not get photos, the floor was self-etch primed and sealed prior to the paint.

Engine-compartment view:

100_1783.JPG


What the rear axle sees:

100_1785.JPG


Various other shots:

100_1784.JPG

100_1786.JPG

100_1787.JPG

100_1789.JPG


And, of course, whilst I had the gun loaded with "1969 Valiant Dingy White" I also shot the new fuel cap. :dance:

100_1791.JPG
 
Last edited:
I also laid down some sound-deadening material, just to keep the car from being a total tin can. :D

The original bench seat is going back, but I left clear spots in case a future owner decides this car for some reason warrants buckets.

This was the last time any work was completed on the car itself. It's all been engine since then, though there's considerable chassis work left to be done.

100_1792.JPG

100_1793.JPG
 
Last edited:
A little over a month later, I installed and degreed the new roller cam. This is not a trifling procedure, as previously mentioned, with the Milodon gear drive. Have pullers, heat, and--I shit thee not--newspaper on hand for this process along with the usual degree wheel, dial indicators, and what-not.

As it turned out, all this effort would be for nought. You'll see why. As such, this will be the short version.

The much-despised Milodon cam drive. Notice the missing bolt... I rounded the hex in one, and as a result I had to buy a new set. One would think that for $37/set, they would be made from something stronger than kiln-fired Play-Doh. They are not. :doh:

100_1825.JPG


Various weapons of torture applied to the block to measure TDC, cam lift (one has to center the cam @ .050" lift on the intake opening event). Sharp eyes will see I'm doing this with the long-abandoned Comp lifters, installed backward. They won't work that way, one of the reasons being that as lift exceeds about .450", they contact and will bend the pushrods.

100_1823.JPG


If you're buying a Milodon gear drive, get used to doing this with the cam hub. Yes, it's fun to try and install @ 350°F.

100_2070.JPG


All buttoned up and ready to rock... at least, that's what I believed when I took this picture. :doh:

100_1827.JPG


I even checked valve-to-piston clearance a few days later, which is when I discovered I was .003" closer than most engine builders recommend. That was with the 1.5:1 Mopar Performance/Crane rockers, which meant the 1.6:1 Harland Sharps were absolutely out of the question. They don't hit, but they're way too close for 7,500RPM comfort.

100_1861.JPG


Shortly (literally about an hour) after checking the clearance... *SIGH* :(

100_1862.JPG

100_1865.JPG


You'll notice the last thing I took out was the cam. Broke my f__kin' heart to do it after so much time degreeing it.
 
Why, you may ax, is the engine torn all the way down to the block again? Excellent question, dear reader, and there's a very good answer.

This little bastard:

100_1834.JPG


You see, that corrosion damage on the wheel makes the lifter unusable. Mind you, I have 15 others of this style that are nearly flawless. "Just buy another lifter, Jass!" you're frantically pounding on your keyboard.

Sure, no problem. You tell me who makes it, and I will. I can tell you who didn't make it, or at least no longer recognizes that they once did: Comp, Crane, Lunati, Schneider, Racer Brown, either of the Herberts (Chet or Doug), Cam Motion, Iskendarian, Bullet, Ultradyne or Cam Dynamics. A number of people on Facebook groups suggested who did make them, but it was decades ago. Some even thought they might have a few lying around, but I never heard back from them.

What's so special about them? The tie bar buttons are to the inside of the lifter rather than the outside. In other words, block clearance.

100_1836.JPG


As previously mentioned, Comp makes something similar in the $700 range... not in the budget for this one. Chet Herbert offered a much less expensive set, claiming no block modifications were needed, so I ordered those.

LIARS! [smilie=l: :naughty:

And so, out came the die grinders, bur bits, and sandpaper rolls...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]20597._xfImport[/ATTACH]


Gettin' started... this was uncharted territory for me, so I was taking baby steps. I'm ill-equipped to start puttin' material back into an engine block.

100_1867.JPG


What I found odd was that the further back on the block one gets, the more material one needs to remove both in thickness and distance from the cam centerline. Cylinders 6, 7 & 8 were not particularly keen on even allowing the lifters into their bores.

100_1872.JPG

100_1873.JPG


The process took a couple of nights, primarily because I was like a whore in church whilst grinding. If there's a next time it'll go much more quickly, but I think I'll stick to flat tappets for awhile. :D

We've got clearance, Clarence:

100_1940.JPG

:dance:
 
Solid floors!
Those frame connectors are somethin', huh?

You'd be amazed at the number of people who totally overlook the seat belt mounting bolt plates...

You can fit more empty Diet Coke cans in the garbage pail if you crush 'em like a man before tossing them in there. As a bonus, you can make grunting noises as you squish them. ;)
 
Solid floors!
Those frame connectors are somethin', huh?
Indeed they are. The US Car Tool stuff is very nice quality. We did not weld them the full length of the floor, instead we put boxing plates across the top of the channel and plug-welded them in several locations. I also have their inboard-spring kit and shock-tower/inner-fender braces, both still awaiting installation.

You'd be amazed at the number of people who totally overlook the seat belt mounting bolt plates...
We not only remembered, we insisted. In fact, I think we re-used the originals because they were heavier gauge. Interesting side note on those: Their location on the reproduction pans was further forward than on the original floor. After discussing it aloud whilst working on other things, Stretch and I decided it was probably a bench v. bucket seat difference, rather than a year difference.

You can fit more empty Diet Coke cans in the garbage pail if you crush 'em like a man before tossing them in there. As a bonus, you can make grunting noises as you squish them. ;)
I don't crush them because they're returnable cans. MI has a ten-cent deposit on carbonated beverage containers, and almost everywhere one brings them has automated machines that have to read the UPC barcode. I buy almost all my Diet Coke in WI, which has no deposit law, but the cans are all stamped "MI deposit". I don't return them myself, but occasionally I'll have a random friend whose kid wants money, and I'll offer the cans. The single-trip record was, if memory serves, 22 brown grocery bags. With at least 54 undamaged cans per bag, that kid had a good payday. Well, he would've, but he gave his Mom $20 for arranging it and the ride, and donated $50(!) to the local animal shelter in my name. I told him he should've kept a little more after standing at a machine for an hour returning nearly 1,200 cans, but he felt $50/hr was a pretty good wage. :D
 
We did not weld them the full length of the floor, instead we put boxing plates across the top of the channel and plug-welded them in several locations.?
Excellent idea! Wonder who thought that one up...?

I don't crush them because they're returnable cans. MI has a ten-cent deposit on carbonated beverage containers, and almost everywhere one brings them has automated machines that have to read the UPC barcode.
Right, forgot about that. I think we've still got a few boxes of empty Faygo cans under the basement stairs...
 
While I had the block stripped for lifter clearancing, and since the grinders were out anyhow, I decided to smooth up some other areas too. Notably, the coolant crossovers in the heads and the oil drainbacks in the block and heads had casting flash on them, hampering the flow of both. What the hell... the mess was incredible already (indeed, it was prior to my starting :D ) so I let 'er rip. The casting flash is a good indication of a casting's quality. These were made on very good molds, with the copes and drags fitting together tightly. No attempt was made during original casting cleanup to get rid of it, because in the production casting world this is not only an acceptable amount of flash, it'd downright good. This process went very quickly.

This head drainback was probably the worst offender of the bunch, and is typical of what I found at all of them.

100_1893.JPG


After a pass with the bur bits and sandpaper rolls, it looked much better.

100_1915.JPG


The same process was applied to all of the drains, as well as the heads' coolant crossover passages.

100_1916.JPG

100_1931.JPG

100_1907.JPG


Notice the coolant crossovers had a wide step in them. That step was not casting flash; my educated guess is that an enlarged coolant-passage core was modified to fit an existing cope (upper half of a casting mold) rather than make a new outer pattern for the W2. Pattern-making is by far the most expensive part of iron casting. That's all supposition, since I didn't bother to compare it to one of my production heads.

Once I had the sandpaper rolls mounted, the remainder of the grinding came in for final detailing. Everything got smoothed nicely to a near-mirror finish. That not only enhances drainage, it also helps lower the engine temps since the oil serves as a secondary coolant.

100_1918.JPG

100_1929.JPG


Shiny. Also, done with this phase of the operation. Sorta.

100_1925.JPG
 
Excellent idea! Wonder who thought that one up...?
As much as I love giving credit where due, I'm pretty sure that was actually our idea. Make no mistake, it was absolutely inspired by you--we may have even run it past you. I've fallen in love with plug-welding, based on your suggestions and your extremely sound reasoning. It would not have occurred to me without your prior input. However, it was borne of necessity--a miscalculation on my part concerning panel replacement--so during floorpan positioning it became evident that full-length welding was not the glorious option it originally seemed. Frankly, I don't think it is anyhow... but first things first:

Long story short, we were at the shop at work and had the time, the frame connectors, the tools, the lift, and the werewithal. When we pulled the carpets, a lot of the floor remained stuck to them and it was evident the pans needed full replacement. I, and solely I, made the command decision to forge ahead with installing the connectors anyhow. That was a mistake, though not an irrevocable one. The floor is the hard point; the connectors are designed to be jockeyed around it, not vice-versa. Once the connectors are in, they're in for good; if one attempts to replace the floor afterward, it's impossible to use the connectors as the hard point--the job of the toeboard pinchweld is to act as the hard point. As such, the connectors fit the old floorpans much better than the new. Plain and simple, I fucked up. My hope is that the reader learns from it.

After a lot of pondering on it, I'm comfortable in saying that since the boxing plates Stretch made were 1/8" plate steel, this arrangement is probably as strong if not stronger than full-length welding. Also, due to generous applications of various coatings, it's probably less corrosion-prone. Since I plan to also use US Car Tool frame connectors on my Challenger, I'll probably do something similar with that car, which still sports its factory floors.

With the Imperial, I'm completely on my own. :doh:
 
Last edited:
oooh... The Vanishing Point Challenger is coming together nicely. nice work with the floorboards and the block grinding. I'd be afraid to grind off the block, being a paranoid bastard and all :) Looks great!
 
Back to our tale of woe... :D

Since I detest grinding, it seemed a capital idea to get it all out of the way while I had the tools already in use. It was time for the heads to go under the knife for some further detail work.

Now, these heads... they're... well, they're not normal W2s. I have five other sets of W2s, along with a set of early development (W1?) castings, so I'm pretty confident in that statement. The first indication I had was the rocker pedestals, which are offset-drilled for some reason. Excessive-length valves? Special-geometry valvetrain? Moved valve centerline? I'm still not 100% certain, since research has never been my priority with this engine. Get it done and running... that's it. The normal W2 stand-drilling location was marked on all 10 pedestals, then completely ignored during original machining.

100_1878.JPG


Another glaring difference is the as-cast intake ports, which were rectangular rather than a standard oval W2 configuration. These had some minor previous work, but I've seen this pattern previously. It's similar to the later W5 arrangement, but the bolt pattern and clear oval area are definitely W2:

100_1881.JPG


This led to more grinding. In the case of the rocker pedestals, the oiling hole was a frightening distance from the bolt hole in the rocker stand itself. Oiling to the MP/Crane rockers is critical, since much like the crank they ride on a film of oil. To ensure the rocker shafts get plenty of oil, I ported the oiling holes to better intersect with the rocker stand:

100_1895.JPG


In the above photo, notice the factory casting-information pad below the pedestal. Someone "blanked" in the original casting mold itself. It's not ground off the casting, evidenced by the sandcast finish. The heads carry the standard 3870810 casting number of all W2 heads from this era (the next generation were -812s) but for whatever reason, this area of the mold was intentionally obscured. "Normal" 810s have the standard W2 oval intake ports and on-center pedestal drilling, verified with an NOS set of 810s I used for comparison. Just another mystery with these heads... but I digress.

Those bumps at the intersection of the oval and rectangular areas of the intake ports seemed a flow disturbance or restriction to me, so I eliminated them. I did not carry the porting further than necessary for smoothing, since you can already chuck a cat through these ports without hitting anything but the valve. I verified this by chucking actual cat, who was annoyed but unharmed.

This photo was prior to final finishing:

100_1882.JPG


After finishing, this is what we have. Below it is an unmodified X head for comparison. I scaled the photos to one another for comparison, but even if I hadn't the pushrod protrusions in the factory 340 port are evident. Check out the difference in approach to the valve from the intake flange!

100_1879-scaled.jpg

100_1880-scaled.jpg


Set on the block for another comparison. The W2 is on the left and stock 340 X head on the right, in case you couldn't figure it out. :D

100_1877.JPG


By no means was this the end of monkeying with the cylinder heads... not by a damned sight. The greatest trials and tribulations were yet to come, both financially and in terms of me questioning my sanity. These heads were no picnic to configure, so if you happen across a set, you're going to need to pay attention closely later in this thread. It got ugly, expensive, and cost me literally 10 weeks of forward progress. The grinders had to come out again, too. :doh:

But hey, everything's all right now--sitting near the end of it and looking back! :D
 
oooh... The Vanishing Point Challenger is coming together nicely. nice work with the floorboards and the block grinding. I'd be afraid to grind off the block, being a paranoid bastard and all :) Looks great!
Wrong car, Jester. This is my '69 Valiant... a.k.a. Agnes. :D

100_1656.JPG
 
We're all slowly fading out, Jester. :doh:

Having finished up with the grinders for a spell, it was time to reassemble the shortblock. I did not document that process. Suffice to say, it's back together:

100_2053.JPG

100_2055.JPG

100_2063.JPG


Also, in the meantime I'd completed my NOS pair of Stewart-Warner TrackForce gauges for the car, complete with an NOS Niehoff cast-aluminum gauge panel in which to hang them. In a similar vein to the W2 engine, it is not likely these will stay with the car when I sell it... they're too hard to find and not inexpensive when located, at least compared to the dime-store shit this car would ordinarily get. :D

100_1986.JPG


Anyhow, we're back to the cam degreeing again. This is a process that, once you're famliar with it, still sucks donkey balls. I managed to wipe out another couple of those heat-treated Silly Putty cam-hub bolts, but at least this time I had spares!

100_2066.JPG

100_2067.JPG

100_1818.JPG


I truly hate this thing:

100_2073.JPG
 
Alright, now we're getting somewhere! The lifters clear, the cam is degreed... everything should go rather quickly now!

Wrong, wrong, WRONG. :naughty:

This would commence what may be the most epic valvetrain battle since Henry Ford deemed overhead valves a fad. It consumed the next several months of my life--I was already working on it when Stretch and I made our semi-annual visit to 68R/T in late April, and was still solving the same issue well after the second one in late September. In fact, I'm still not f__kin' done with this battle, although for all intents and purposes it's at least sorted out.

Remember this nonsense?

100_2244.JPG


As it would happen, this offset would be my nemesis for several months--something I'm on which I'm doing finishing work on the final corrections as I type this. If you've got the right bits, this is a desirable arrangement. I do not have the right bits.

What this represents is the original '70s Pro Stock solution for the LA engine's 59° tappet angle. That angle was a carry-over from the polyshperic A engine, where it was actually a nearly-ideal compromise (a look at poly valvetrain and you'll see why). Long prior to the introduction of over-the-counter "R" blocks with ready-machined 48° lifter bores, racers would take a '70s-era race block (the "X" block) and re-machine the lifter bores way oversize. They could correct the lifter angle via the machining itself and using straight lifter bushings, or by using angled-bore lifter bushings. It was a brilliant solution for the high-RPM demands of big ovals and Pro Stock racing, and it used standard W2 rocker arms along with nearly-ridiculous valve lenghts (for an LA engine).

Although I knew these were oddball race heads, it's very important for me to point out:
At this point in the project (first quarter of 2018), I was totally unaware of much of the preceding information regarding valvetrain angles, and completely ignorant as to how might actually apply to what was I was doing. :doh:

"So what does all this mean, Jass? What's all your fussin' aboot?" Glad you axed. Since I do not have a 48° block, some funny things happen with the valvetrain.

The first major failing--and this is the biggie--is that with standard on-center rocker shafts and stands, the pushrods want to occupy the same space as the intake faces of the cylinder heads. I initially tried to grind my way out of that situation:

100_2086.JPG


I realized very quickly that it wasn't going to work, since I'd have been left with virtually no gasket surface at 8 points on each valve cover:

100_2090.JPG


In addition, the already "less than optimal" LA pushrod angles were now approaching "downright ludicrous" territory:

100_2095.JPG


Up until this point, I'd been using "standard" W2 rocker-shaft stands, meaning "expensive custom ones built to Chrysler dimensions" but they clearly weren't going to work on these heads. So I reached into my W2 bag of tricks and pulled out a set of ancient Harland Sharp "reversible" stands that came with one of my sets of Harland Sharp rockers.

H.S. v. factory-spec, Sharp in front and resting on its thin mounting side:

100_2081.JPG


Reversed, with the H.S. now at the rear, resting on its thick mounting side:

100_2084.JPG


:hmmm:

Well, that gave me a little wiggle room, plus a good basis for studying the effect of varying shaft heights on pushrod angle and roller-to-valve-tip contact. Wiggle I would, and study I did--and I ran into an even more perplexing issue: I realized I had no repeatability. As in, from one check to the next nothing measured out the same, be it pushrod clearance, roller contact on the valve, etc. In an effort to be more scientific about things, I marked one of each set of stands and their position on the lone shaft I marked (both as the one to use and its orientation), chose only one intake and one exhaust rocker, and left every bolt in the same position. I eliminated every possible variance that would mess up repeatable results... and I still couldn't get them.

Clearly I'd been in the garage too long, and inhaled too many chemicals. I was completely flummoxed. I could remove an assembled shaft and immediately reinstall it, and I'd get different results. The dial indicators, feeler gauges, and digital calipers all backed me up on this, even though it was evident to the naked eye something was changing--but I didn't trust my eyes at that point.

This went on for a couple of nights... and then I discovered this:

100_2138.JPG


Look again if it didn't jump out at you. That, my friends, is a hardened, extra-thick W2-specific rocker shaft--and it's fucking bent. While it was still bolted exactly as shown to the #1 and #2 pedestals on the head, I took the following series of photos.

Bolt hole alignment at Pedestal #3:

100_2127.JPG


...at Pedestal #4:

100_2136.JPG


...and at Pedestal #5:

100_2137.JPG


I don't even know how someone could bend a rocker shaft like that, but as I found out someone managed to bend both rocker shafts in the pair identically. As evidenced by the photos, they're bent in two planes, so to speak. If I was forced to wager, I'd bet someone pulled an engine/transmission combo out by bolting the lifting chain to the center bolt holes of the rocker shafts, with only the outer stands or hold-downs being fastened. Even at that, I'd guess they forgot a couple of motor-mount bolts and lifted the whole front of the car first. These are beefy shafts, yet they not only banana away from the head, but the bolt holes aren't even in straight line anymore either. One doesn't think of steel as something squirmy, but I assure you it is when you're trying to bolt it somewhere it'd rather not be. As soon as I swapped out shafts, I had perfect repeatability--even between different rocker arms. The intake rockers in particular (being as wide as they are) were suddenly much easier to slide onto the shafts, too.

The irony was not lost on me that I discovered the bent shafts on April 1st. :D
 

SiteLock

SiteLock
Back
Top