Rusty's not very quiet cuda progress
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RUSTY Cuda
In over my head!
good bad & ugly! Crawled around under the car most of the day, tranny mount came in a different brand box & said made in korea on it, looked like the anchor one with that extra bracket, anyway it's in & i still got a clunk, same thing just as I'm taking off, maybe between 5 & 10 mph.
Rechecked the axel play, I had to loosen up a bit, still have a bearing noise back there.
Got the brake line leak fixed & put some rustolium on the spots it removed the paint(& The por15)
seems the old cotter pins are broken off in the front of the strut rods, doesn't help that I por15'd over them, gonna starty soaking them in stripper tomorrow.
Also tweeked the oil pan bolts, they moved quite easily, was still careful not to overtighten, never got around to pulling the inspect cover had to run out on a service call, I'll just wait & see if it gets wet again.
topped off the power sreering fluid, wasn't that low, but with a couple of rides around the block it started to puddle on the box below the shaft!
Gonna wait till the bros come over sunday, see what they think of the noises!
Long day in the hot sun, forgot how much fun this is!:shifty: Supposed to be!
Rich.
Rechecked the axel play, I had to loosen up a bit, still have a bearing noise back there.
Got the brake line leak fixed & put some rustolium on the spots it removed the paint(& The por15)
seems the old cotter pins are broken off in the front of the strut rods, doesn't help that I por15'd over them, gonna starty soaking them in stripper tomorrow.
Also tweeked the oil pan bolts, they moved quite easily, was still careful not to overtighten, never got around to pulling the inspect cover had to run out on a service call, I'll just wait & see if it gets wet again.
topped off the power sreering fluid, wasn't that low, but with a couple of rides around the block it started to puddle on the box below the shaft!
Gonna wait till the bros come over sunday, see what they think of the noises!
Long day in the hot sun, forgot how much fun this is!:shifty: Supposed to be!
Rich.
RUSTY Cuda
In over my head!
Got out the remnants of those cotter pins, cost me 2 broken punches,one trip to the hardware store, one destroyed stanley awl & one 1/2 drive long extension, but the new cotter pins are in & coated with half a can of neversieze!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:dgt:
Put a nut & screw on the other hood release base(dash metal was stripped)
Adjusted my kick down all the way out, gotta get to higher speed roads can't use enough throttle to even tell when its shifting, now some food for thought on this ,
This guy seemed to be setting this car up for racing, there was absolutly NO kickdown linkage on it when I got it, gonna pull the specs on what he did to the tranny, Remember the higher stall converter & shift kit, but how did he run it with no kickdown??
The bros will be here tomorrow hoping to knock off a few more things on the to do list! Rich. [smilie=::
Put a nut & screw on the other hood release base(dash metal was stripped)
Adjusted my kick down all the way out, gotta get to higher speed roads can't use enough throttle to even tell when its shifting, now some food for thought on this ,
This guy seemed to be setting this car up for racing, there was absolutly NO kickdown linkage on it when I got it, gonna pull the specs on what he did to the tranny, Remember the higher stall converter & shift kit, but how did he run it with no kickdown??
The bros will be here tomorrow hoping to knock off a few more things on the to do list! Rich. [smilie=::
thrashingcows
Drowning deep in my sea of loathing...so I'm
Well if he ran it with no kick down pressure then the tranny will have suffered some damage. Don't take long to cook a 727 or 904 with no kick down.
It sucks having all those little things to chase down and rectify, especially after spending all that time redoing everything. I had a host of problems when I finally got my 68 conronet rag on the road. Took months to get it all sorted out. Keep up the good work and eventually you'll get it all figured out and right.
It sucks having all those little things to chase down and rectify, especially after spending all that time redoing everything. I had a host of problems when I finally got my 68 conronet rag on the road. Took months to get it all sorted out. Keep up the good work and eventually you'll get it all figured out and right.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
There's only a couple of ways to run a 727 without kickdown (more correctly, it's throttle-pressure) linkage: Either you fix the transmission's arm all the way back, held by a spring or bracket or such, or you pull the throttle valve out of the transmission's valve body and install it backwards (this is how I did it on my full-manual valve body). Either way is going to get you full line pressure all the time, which results in high upshift speeds and very-hard shifts. My full-manual 727 screeched the tires on every 1-2 shift, regardless of throttle input, which explains why a different valve body was installed in less than 2 weeks. 
A Torqueflite's lifespan without one of those three solutions is usually measured in minutes. If your kickdown lever on the trans is all the way back at full throttle, you should be good. If it's shifting that softly, though, I wonder if it's not hurt.
Also, I've said it before and I'll say it again: Use only Ford Type F or Type FA fluid in a A904/A998/A999/A727. Yes, I know the factory spec is for Dexron II (now Dex III/Mercon) but Type F/FA is key. You'll get better shifting and longer life, period.
I'd take a journey inside my transmission pan to look for a couple of things. First, I'd drop the valve body and if I found an accumulator spring I'd toss it in the trash. If he put a shift kit in it, this should have been in the instructions. The other thing I'd do is check the line-pressure adjustment screw. That bad boy should be backed off until there's either 1 or no threads showing to the inside (put Loctite on it if you're paranoid--I am!) and I'd put it back all back together, of course topping off with the aforementioned Type F.
Chances are if you've still got a bearing noise, the wheel bearings are wiped out from being run at excessive endplay. That would suck; the bearings/seals aren't cheap and you need either a press to replace them or pay someone to do it. If adjusting the wheel bearings helped but did not solve the problem, that would be my guess. If it didn't make much or any difference, I'd be looking at either pinion or differential side bearings. I'm actually starting to wonder about the pinion, because that could be causing your mystery thump as well. Check for F/R movement of the pinion. If there's any at all, the pig's got to come out and a new crush sleeve installed, along with new pinion bearings. If you've got it that far apart, you might as well replace the diff's side bearings as well.
Brake fluid: DOT 5 silicone would have been a better bet. It won't harm paint. It's a damned shame it's $20+ a quart, but it's a lot cheaper than a paint job should you spill or have a leak.
It sounds like the PS box needs a seal kit. They're cheap (a few bucks) but some of the seals are a bitch to install.
A Torqueflite's lifespan without one of those three solutions is usually measured in minutes. If your kickdown lever on the trans is all the way back at full throttle, you should be good. If it's shifting that softly, though, I wonder if it's not hurt.
Also, I've said it before and I'll say it again: Use only Ford Type F or Type FA fluid in a A904/A998/A999/A727. Yes, I know the factory spec is for Dexron II (now Dex III/Mercon) but Type F/FA is key. You'll get better shifting and longer life, period.
I'd take a journey inside my transmission pan to look for a couple of things. First, I'd drop the valve body and if I found an accumulator spring I'd toss it in the trash. If he put a shift kit in it, this should have been in the instructions. The other thing I'd do is check the line-pressure adjustment screw. That bad boy should be backed off until there's either 1 or no threads showing to the inside (put Loctite on it if you're paranoid--I am!) and I'd put it back all back together, of course topping off with the aforementioned Type F.
Chances are if you've still got a bearing noise, the wheel bearings are wiped out from being run at excessive endplay. That would suck; the bearings/seals aren't cheap and you need either a press to replace them or pay someone to do it. If adjusting the wheel bearings helped but did not solve the problem, that would be my guess. If it didn't make much or any difference, I'd be looking at either pinion or differential side bearings. I'm actually starting to wonder about the pinion, because that could be causing your mystery thump as well. Check for F/R movement of the pinion. If there's any at all, the pig's got to come out and a new crush sleeve installed, along with new pinion bearings. If you've got it that far apart, you might as well replace the diff's side bearings as well.
Brake fluid: DOT 5 silicone would have been a better bet. It won't harm paint. It's a damned shame it's $20+ a quart, but it's a lot cheaper than a paint job should you spill or have a leak.
It sounds like the PS box needs a seal kit. They're cheap (a few bucks) but some of the seals are a bitch to install.
RUSTY Cuda
In over my head!
OK, I'm not even sure this car was run a lot after the work was done, 340 bros seem to think the motor guts looked like low milage was put on it.
maybe it was parked because of rear end probs?
My mechanic said I was in drive at 20 mph, now with all the new noise around me I cant even tell when it's shifting, and as I said local streets won't allow any long hard accellerations.
I did go into low, pull away with a decent bit of throttle & then shift to 2nd, it seemed to shift well(& still pull) & then I just put it in 3rd & it was a smooth shift(but under no load whatsoever)
If my bearings aren't shot maybe we can get her out on the highway, & do some higher throttle testing.
I put a new deep pan on & a new filter, wish I knew what to look for back then, I don't think the trannys hurtin, hopefully just adjustingneeded, but time & the 340 bros hopefully will tell!
maybe it was parked because of rear end probs?
My mechanic said I was in drive at 20 mph, now with all the new noise around me I cant even tell when it's shifting, and as I said local streets won't allow any long hard accellerations.
I did go into low, pull away with a decent bit of throttle & then shift to 2nd, it seemed to shift well(& still pull) & then I just put it in 3rd & it was a smooth shift(but under no load whatsoever)
If my bearings aren't shot maybe we can get her out on the highway, & do some higher throttle testing.
I put a new deep pan on & a new filter, wish I knew what to look for back then, I don't think the trannys hurtin, hopefully just adjustingneeded, but time & the 340 bros hopefully will tell!
RUSTY Cuda
In over my head!
A few steps foward, couple of didn't get to it's & a pretty bad possibility!
We started on the rear end & the clunk, different problems, seems the tranny is shifting way early,that seems to be the clunk, when we adjust the kick down rod there's still a little more it could move the trans lever it's open 3/4 to 7/8 of its swing.I did not find a shift kit listed on the things done to the car, just the higher torque converter, so I don't know what if anything was actually done to it!
The bearings were shot, really bad on the drivers side, in it's couple of years outside moisture got in, mud for lube!
don & greg pulled the center chunk, which looks good, couple cans a brake clean & a cleaning disk on the inside of the pumpkin & ready to reinstall the pumpkin, we wasted bout 2 hours trying to find a parts store open on sunday, got some chow & went back at it , didn't help pouring rain on & off all afternoon.
Pulled the axels out of the 74 & slid those in , so all I have left on that is fill up the gear lube & set the axels, they checked my final settings before we started & then compared them to the 74 seemed good so I fairly confident I won't ruin another set.
Don't know any auto tranny gurus so I may just take it to a shop for an estimate on repair, if not major, just let em do it!
while I was under there grabbed a rail to pull myself out & more brake fluid, that bottom fitting is still seeping!
Never got to the tune up,but I'm happy as a guy can be with all the other shit that at least the rear end should be good to go.
Don took some picks of the carnage, maybe he'll post up later.
Thanks a ton guys for all the help under such wonderful conditions! Rich.
We started on the rear end & the clunk, different problems, seems the tranny is shifting way early,that seems to be the clunk, when we adjust the kick down rod there's still a little more it could move the trans lever it's open 3/4 to 7/8 of its swing.I did not find a shift kit listed on the things done to the car, just the higher torque converter, so I don't know what if anything was actually done to it!
The bearings were shot, really bad on the drivers side, in it's couple of years outside moisture got in, mud for lube!
don & greg pulled the center chunk, which looks good, couple cans a brake clean & a cleaning disk on the inside of the pumpkin & ready to reinstall the pumpkin, we wasted bout 2 hours trying to find a parts store open on sunday, got some chow & went back at it , didn't help pouring rain on & off all afternoon.
Pulled the axels out of the 74 & slid those in , so all I have left on that is fill up the gear lube & set the axels, they checked my final settings before we started & then compared them to the 74 seemed good so I fairly confident I won't ruin another set.
Don't know any auto tranny gurus so I may just take it to a shop for an estimate on repair, if not major, just let em do it!
while I was under there grabbed a rail to pull myself out & more brake fluid, that bottom fitting is still seeping!
Never got to the tune up,but I'm happy as a guy can be with all the other shit that at least the rear end should be good to go.
Don took some picks of the carnage, maybe he'll post up later.
Thanks a ton guys for all the help under such wonderful conditions! Rich.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
OK, here's my guess about the transmission: It's a 2WD truck trans. That would explain the low upshifts since truck governors shift considerably lower than car versions. If you can install a governor assembly from a car--any car--you should see considerable improvement. I'm not 100% sure, but I think the governor assemblies interchange between all older RWD transmission. Other than buying new, I would suggest finding one from an '80s cop car, which shouldn't be too tough. If you buy aftermarket, be careful... a friend of mine did that and didn't do his research beforehand. His '77 Charger Daytona wouldn't upshift to second gear until 25MPH, and couldn't get into 3rd below 45MPH, no matter what he did.
The kickdown linkage needs to be repaired; it sounds like it's made up of mismatched parts that don't allow full travel. Either that or you don't have the correct throttle-lever extension on the carb. What kind of carb have you got, and if it's not an OEM Mopar carb, do you have the Chrysler throttle-lever adapter on it?
As far as the brake line goes, it sounds like you've either got a damaged fitting or a bad flare. My first suggestion is to cut the end of the line and do a new double-flare. If that doesn't do it, there's damage to the fitting into which that line fits.
Axles: Swapping the '74 axles into the car will require the wheel bearing endplay to be reset. You can't just pull 'em from one, slap 'em into another, and expect it to be good. You have to re-adjust them, period. Break out the BFH and have at 'er all over again--there's plenty of production variance between axle housings and thrust blocks, and there's no way they're going to be OK if you just slam 'em home.
I thought you'd gone through the rear axle in the course of everything else. This has been such an enormous project I guess I made assumptions.
The kickdown linkage needs to be repaired; it sounds like it's made up of mismatched parts that don't allow full travel. Either that or you don't have the correct throttle-lever extension on the carb. What kind of carb have you got, and if it's not an OEM Mopar carb, do you have the Chrysler throttle-lever adapter on it?
As far as the brake line goes, it sounds like you've either got a damaged fitting or a bad flare. My first suggestion is to cut the end of the line and do a new double-flare. If that doesn't do it, there's damage to the fitting into which that line fits.
Axles: Swapping the '74 axles into the car will require the wheel bearing endplay to be reset. You can't just pull 'em from one, slap 'em into another, and expect it to be good. You have to re-adjust them, period. Break out the BFH and have at 'er all over again--there's plenty of production variance between axle housings and thrust blocks, and there's no way they're going to be OK if you just slam 'em home.
I thought you'd gone through the rear axle in the course of everything else. This has been such an enormous project I guess I made assumptions.
RUSTY Cuda
In over my head!
Rear, yes I did mention reset the axels(the hammer thingie)
I don't feel "qulified" enough to mess with the trans, I will probably end up at a shop after I get some recco's on a reliable place.
I was actually pulling that brake line fitting but being upside down I went tighter since my head is screwed on backwards pumped the hell out of the brakes & it was dry, I will remove & examin it this time!
Drive train was pretty much cleaned up & put back in, I thought I did end seals, that may have even been on the 74, it was 8 years ago, I don't remember half of what I did or didn't do to which car! :doh:
Carb is an eddy(or the previous name) but it's on a high rise manifold, throttle cable is extended,rinky dink, I think you can see it in the pic I'll post) at the carb there's an adptor(a kit I bought) to adjust for that(I think)
here's that setup, see if it's that bad, comparing it to other setups I've seen I thought it was pretty close? Thanks,Rich.
Oh yea, thats the old holly, carbs been changed, same setup o the linkage!
I don't feel "qulified" enough to mess with the trans, I will probably end up at a shop after I get some recco's on a reliable place.
I was actually pulling that brake line fitting but being upside down I went tighter since my head is screwed on backwards
pumped the hell out of the brakes & it was dry, I will remove & examin it this time!Drive train was pretty much cleaned up & put back in, I thought I did end seals, that may have even been on the 74, it was 8 years ago, I don't remember half of what I did or didn't do to which car! :doh:
Carb is an eddy(or the previous name) but it's on a high rise manifold, throttle cable is extended,rinky dink, I think you can see it in the pic I'll post) at the carb there's an adptor(a kit I bought) to adjust for that(I think)
here's that setup, see if it's that bad, comparing it to other setups I've seen I thought it was pretty close? Thanks,Rich.
Oh yea, thats the old holly, carbs been changed, same setup o the linkage!
thrashingcows
Drowning deep in my sea of loathing...so I'm
I know when I was messin around with kick down linkage on my 70 sport fury, I discovered that there are a lot of different kick down rods and levers. I was making junkyard runs, and tried set-ups from vans, trucks, and cars, and found that the main rod would sometimes bend a little different to clear this thing or that. Also there are different kick down levers, some are straight, some curve slightly and some are indexed a little different as well, depends on the kick down rod being used I suspect.
So maybe you have miss matched parts, car kick down rod, and a truck lever? But regardless you need to get your linkage set so the lever is all the way back, or you will never get proper kick down, or be able to adjust your shift points properly.
So maybe you have miss matched parts, car kick down rod, and a truck lever? But regardless you need to get your linkage set so the lever is all the way back, or you will never get proper kick down, or be able to adjust your shift points properly.
RUSTY Cuda
In over my head!
Yes, but I'll shoot a pic of that today, going out there later to finish off the rear then I'm going to play with that linkage, mabe I can tweek that rod (straighten the 2 big bends a tad) to give it more throw.
gotta check where I have that bolt in the slide bar, thats supposed to make up for the high rise, maybe I can move that foward a tad to get more push.
School me a bit, ?pushing the tranny lever back increases pressure? if so would that 1/8 or 1/4 of an inch make that much of a difference(this baby shifts at 5 to 8 mph under easy take off)
If I adjust for full throw but end up with it not all the way foward on idle, what would that do, worse or better.
Moneys been tight, don't wanna give it away if I don't have to! Thanks,Rich.
gotta check where I have that bolt in the slide bar, thats supposed to make up for the high rise, maybe I can move that foward a tad to get more push.
School me a bit, ?pushing the tranny lever back increases pressure? if so would that 1/8 or 1/4 of an inch make that much of a difference(this baby shifts at 5 to 8 mph under easy take off)
If I adjust for full throw but end up with it not all the way foward on idle, what would that do, worse or better.
Moneys been tight, don't wanna give it away if I don't have to! Thanks,Rich.
RUSTY Cuda
In over my head!
:doh: Ok, I did NOT transfer that adaptor to the new carb, went out to shoot another pick & holy crap it's right on the carb no adaptor, I guess because the throttle with exrtension reached I thought I didn't need the adaptor, still have it,so another job to get on today, could it be that easy??????????????????? I friggen hope so, but this is the Rusty one so :doubt: is my 1st though
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
Both Holley and Edelbrock make their own versions of the lever extension, but I believe they interchange... it does move the linkage back some. I think it also moves it up a little, which leads me to my next point...
Your high-rise intake: I'm not crazy about the angle at which the slider at the throttle stud is angled. I think that may also be part of the problem. The throttle stud moves in an upward arc, which is going to exaggerate the angle of the slider before it actually starts moving it.
You may want to try putting a spacer underneath the kickdown/throttle-cable bracket to get the slider closer to being level. I'd suggest starting with flat washers, which you can add or remove to get the angle ideal. Of course, you'll have to check for bind when you get it right since the whole linkage will need to move up some. It might require a little re-bending of the rod that goes to the transmission to allow for the extra height.
And get that return spring off the PCV hose!
Your high-rise intake: I'm not crazy about the angle at which the slider at the throttle stud is angled. I think that may also be part of the problem. The throttle stud moves in an upward arc, which is going to exaggerate the angle of the slider before it actually starts moving it.
You may want to try putting a spacer underneath the kickdown/throttle-cable bracket to get the slider closer to being level. I'd suggest starting with flat washers, which you can add or remove to get the angle ideal. Of course, you'll have to check for bind when you get it right since the whole linkage will need to move up some. It might require a little re-bending of the rod that goes to the transmission to allow for the extra height.
And get that return spring off the PCV hose!
RUSTY Cuda
In over my head!
Hose might end up under that baby when I get that adapter on , I think the adapter might lower the push rod & with the straighter angle give me more throw on the lower linkage rod, can't remember exactly why I didn't put it on
I finished up the rear & ran it on the stands, it's quiet with no load, got my fingers crossed it will be on the road too:helpme:
Got a service call to run then I'll play with that linkage & the brake leak!
Mann if it could only be that simple!:giggedy:but you know my luck!:doh:Rich.
, I think the adapter might lower the push rod & with the straighter angle give me more throw on the lower linkage rod, can't remember exactly why I didn't put it on I finished up the rear & ran it on the stands, it's quiet with no load, got my fingers crossed it will be on the road too:helpme:
Got a service call to run then I'll play with that linkage & the brake leak!
Mann if it could only be that simple!:giggedy:but you know my luck!:doh:Rich.
thrashingcows
Drowning deep in my sea of loathing...so I'm
I agree with Doc, as soon as I saw your set-up I suspected the problem right away. I don't know if the adapter will make much of a difference, but it's worth a try at least. But the real problem, as Doc stated, is the kickdown/trottle bracket. It's way to low, you need it to be more in line with the carb linkage, or you need to increase the amount of adjustment on the lower kick down rod.
And to answer your other question about the 1/4" travel on the lever, yes it will make a huge difference. Since when adjusting the kickdown on big block cars you turn the rod one or two turns, and this can make a several hundred rpm adjustment in the shift points.
And to answer your other question about the 1/4" travel on the lever, yes it will make a huge difference. Since when adjusting the kickdown on big block cars you turn the rod one or two turns, and this can make a several hundred rpm adjustment in the shift points.
RUSTY Cuda
In over my head!
ok, something is missing on that carb, the adaptors bolt on with 2 bolts & the arm on that carb only has one, so i canibalized the 74 a tad more.
It had the eddy adpt on it, switched em out, level is not much lower, slightly better angle but it also seems a bit back further. being alone today I can't say 100% but it seems to be all the way foward at idle & all the way back at full throttle(held it open the grabed the rod down low & it did not go back more like it did before.)
Pics first, sob story later!:dgt:
It had the eddy adpt on it, switched em out, level is not much lower, slightly better angle but it also seems a bit back further. being alone today I can't say 100% but it seems to be all the way foward at idle & all the way back at full throttle(held it open the grabed the rod down low & it did not go back more like it did before.)
Pics first, sob story later!:dgt:
RUSTY Cuda
In over my head!
Now here's a kicker, I put that carb on the 74 & that one hole seems to line up perfectly, one option I may go to as a last resort is to also steal the kickdown from the 74, also a one piece rod, but a little different from the one I have,
Sob story yet to come! :dgt:
Sob story yet to come! :dgt:
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RUSTY Cuda
In over my head!
One more question , the newer eddy does not have this white wire, should I transfer that over too, looks like a simple ground?
RUSTY Cuda
In over my head!
:hmmm: Now for the sob story, picture joe amature thinking he may have the problem solved, just DYING to take the car out for a test drive & see if the rear is quiet & the shifts are better & he friggen cant get the GD carb tuned enough to move the F-in car!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Got it started up ok, idle real high, tried to lower it & she stalls out at anything under 12 or 1300 rpm's.
Messed with the mixture to no avail, was gonna just take it out anyway & banged it into drive &... & she friggen stalled right out.
Got out the vaccum guage & it's all over the place,moving between 10 & 15" hooked the vaccum advance back up, no difference,Guage on drivers side vac port, advance on pass side (as it was on the other carb)
put both screws all the way in & brought em both out 2 1/2 turns, even starting there can't get it to run at a lower idle.
So Cooler heads prevailed & I figgered the drive will have to wait till I get that dialed in a little better! [smilie=f: Rich.
Oh yea, this carb ran decent on the 74, started with a normal fast idle & would kick down & idle decently, don't remember the exact rpm's but nothing like whats going on now.
I'll starve it for air tomorrow & see if maybe the old gasket is leaking.......... that brings another thought to mind, there is also a 3/8" or so spacer under the carb do I really need that, removing that would also improve the kickdown angle!
Got it started up ok, idle real high, tried to lower it & she stalls out at anything under 12 or 1300 rpm's.
Messed with the mixture to no avail, was gonna just take it out anyway & banged it into drive &... & she friggen stalled right out.
Got out the vaccum guage & it's all over the place,moving between 10 & 15" hooked the vaccum advance back up, no difference,Guage on drivers side vac port, advance on pass side (as it was on the other carb)
put both screws all the way in & brought em both out 2 1/2 turns, even starting there can't get it to run at a lower idle.
So Cooler heads prevailed & I figgered the drive will have to wait till I get that dialed in a little better! [smilie=f: Rich.
Oh yea, this carb ran decent on the 74, started with a normal fast idle & would kick down & idle decently, don't remember the exact rpm's but nothing like whats going on now.
I'll starve it for air tomorrow & see if maybe the old gasket is leaking.......... that brings another thought to mind, there is also a 3/8" or so spacer under the carb do I really need that, removing that would also improve the kickdown angle!
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