Rusty's not very quiet cuda progress

[RUSTY Cuda]

Boonton actually. If you need them let me know.

Thats up 23, not too far, my bro in law was west milford, bout 45 minuets from me.

 

[Dr.Jass]

That Fluke looks like a dedicated ammeter, not a DMM. I don't see any settings for anything other than measuring amperage.

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

This is NOT going well so far, I was just trying to see if I could get my meter stuck In the starter wire on the steering harness & it friggen beeped, the other side was in cavity 20!!!!!!!!
so far no matches on the blue for the A/C switch, but I was looking at some dangling wires & I think these are the A/C wires that go through the fire wall
#4 on the bulkhead is empty, I think this is the neutral safty connector?
I'm going to try touching all the wires to each hole till I get some beeps, I'm already sore & sweating my ass off so it may not get done today.

Is this where I pick up the green for the heater resistor?
I cut the old plug off the trash harness to make sure my meter was making good contact
that round hole off to the right & a little higher is I think where the A/C wires cone out, there's not a lot of other holes!

I'm heading back out at least for a while to see if I can get a hartbeat (beep) out of this monster!

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

It has a continuity tester with the beep!
Amps are through the jaws, volts & ohms are on the dial with the test leads. (it set on resistance if you do a close up. )

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

OK, did I say I hate wiring!!!!!

I have no idea what's going on here, not a lot of results but so far NOTHING matches either the 74 or 73 colors!

Got 2 lousy beeps.
Cavity 20 to the yellow on the steering harness (starter?)
Cavity 22 to the brown on the steering harness (igi start acc. to the 74 chart)
Cavity 18 gave me weird readings in 3 places on the steering column plug

fat black would jump & then drop off No beep

double orange would read, hold the # but again no beep
Same with the double black/black w/Y*

I had continuity between the blue at the A/C switch & the blue in those 2 wires with the firewall plug, so they are probably the A/c wires?

I couldn't get to the wiper switch wires so that's still unchecked for now.

I did get one reading to what I think is the brake waring wire but I forget which # now!
I wrote it down somewhere!!!
the pinkish one with my bent probe sticking in it!


So I lay under there contemplating trying to change out that harness, is it even possible without dropping the dash again? It sure doesn't look like it.
Heater box & a/c duct are in, clove box is not!

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

OK another problem, my steering harness only has 7 pins
Starting at one end
1 yellow
2 black (thick)
3 blue w/w*
4 brown
5 red (thick)
6 double orange
7 black & black w/y* (both in one pin)

 

[Dr.Jass]

Step 1: Check Cavity 9.
Put one test probe in Cavity 9 on the engine-compartment side. Take the other probe and find the ignition-switch connector at the steering column (8 pins inline, rectangular, four flat sides). If it's not plugged in yet, use the body side, not the side that goes into the column. Touch your probe to the large yellow wire (12ga Y). Listen for continuity (the multimeter should start beeping continuously).

Step 2: Cavity 19.
Move your engine-compartment probe to Cavity 19. Use the other probe at the 18-gauge brown (BR) wire at the back of the wiper switch (the terminal is marked W on the switch, there is NO tracer on wire). Does it beep?

If you had continuity (beeps) in both Steps 1 & 2, you can skip to Step 5. If you did not, continue to Step 3.

Step 3: Check Cavity 9 again, except this time on the interior side you want to check it against the 18ga BR (no tracer) wire at terminal W on the wiper switch. Is there continuity now?

Step 4: Check Cavity 19 again, but now you want to check it at the 12ga Y wire on the ignition-switch harness (where you checked Cavity 9 in Step 1). Does this get you a beep?

Step 5: Cavity 4
Put your probe in Cavity 4 on the firewall. Take your other probe and touch it to the dark green (DGN) wire (either one) at the blower-motor resistor connector. Does it beep?

Step 6: Cavity 20
With one probe in firewall Cavity 20, touch the other to the dark blue (DBL) wire that connects to the HVAC controls (should be at top center). Have we a beep?

Respond with results. Keep it simple, i.e. "Step 1, beep. Step 2, no beep" and so forth.

The only cavities I wanted you to check were 4, 9, 19, and 20, and then only against the specific terminals outlined in the procedure. Anything else is just adding complexity and confusion to the equation, especially since a lot of those will only show continuity with a switch turned on, the ignition in the RUN or ACC position, etc. This is why I left out any other terminals, wires, colors, etc.

This is NOT going well so far, I was just trying to see if I could get my meter stuck In the starter wire on the steering harness & it friggen beeped, the other side was in cavity 20!

This alone indicates a 1974 interlock harness, but I still need to know the results of the specific procedure I outlined, and nothing else.

Once again, this is a feature or characteristic used only in 1974, and shown on the modified bulkhead block diagram I posted at the top of page 161. This would also explain why Cavity 4 is empty--since you don't have a Rallye dash there's no need to populate it with a tachometer terminal.

Is this where I pick up the green for the heater resistor? View attachment 26187

Yes.

I cut the old plug off the trash harness to make sure my meter was making good contactView attachment 26190

Good idea.

I know you're not going to get a beep by testing Cavity 4 since it's not populated. Cavity 20 appears to have continuity to the large yellow wire on your ignition-switch connection. What's the story with Cavities 9 and 19?

If you get me the information I need, I can probably help you avoid having to change the dash harness. It probably won't even be that hard, honestly.

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

When I got no results at 9 & 19 I was trying to see if any of the others went to that yellow wire & 20 did show up!

Both 9 & 19 I couldn't get a beep anywhere, I tried all the points on the steering harness & the blue on the A/C switch & that green by the heater box & the 2 dangling which I think one is for the brake pedal. As I said I couldn't reach the wiper switch, I'll take that out tomorrow & hope one of those gives me a reading.
on the new harness both 19 & 20 are in all that yellow wiring for the lock out I think it was 19 that had the black tracer.

I was hoping to avoid dismantling the dash, & was fried after 2 hours under there today I will pull the switch tomorrow.

Also noticed my 73 book only has one engine bay diagram & it's not even B line.

Now my friend recommended Classic car wiring .com I can get an 18x18 laminated sheet with the whole car on it, color coded so there easy to trace.

Now the new harness except for the lockout should be plug & play if I'm going back to all stock parts.

I'm sorry I'm so dense, but this car is not making any sense.

I would Truley like to save the dash harness, not only to avoid the painful work it will be but the 500 more bucks I'd have to spring for!

Now I think the fuse box is marked, would it be of any benefit to hook up to those & then go poke around the bulkhead & see if anything gives me a beep, then I'd know what part or section of parts it goes too?

 

[68R/T]

OK, you need a spare set, I have no use for them now, I guess it was at least a mopar guy who rigged up the down turn exhaust that was on there!

I can always add them to my spare parts stash. I'll message my address.

 

[Dr.Jass]

When I got no results at 9 & 19 I was trying to see if any of the others went to that yellow wire & 20 did show up!

Yes, continuity between Cavity 20 and the large yellow wire on the ignition-switch connector is consistent for a 1974 interlock car. Cavity 20 feeds the interlock override switch.

Your test of Cavity 22 to the brown wire on the column connector is good. That's the circuit that feeds 12V+ to the coil during cranking, and you've verified that will work as designed. That connection did not change between '73 and '74.

Cavity 18 is a power feed and very hard to test accurately. as it's connected to the starter, ammeter, alternator, fusible link and about a million other things inside the car via a welded splice. It'll be wacky no matter where you test it. That position didn't change either, so don't concern yourself with it.

I was hoping to avoid dismantling the dash, & was fried after 2 hours under there today I will pull the switch tomorrow.

You only need to take it apart far enough to probe the BR wire (no tracer!) on the wiper switch's W terminal. You'll need to remove about 10 screws to do it: Six on the light bar, and four on the switch panel. The switch panel should come out, allowing you to access the back of the switch, no further disassembly required.

Poke your probe into the backside of the connector at that terminal, and check it against Cavities 9 and 19. Report back which one has continuity. I think I know the answer but I want you to verify it. The only other thing we'll need to verify to make everything work: Where does the cavity that doesn't have continuity go? If my suspicions are correct, you've got one wire behind your dash that's either missing, cut and hanging, or goes into a connector you can't find.

Also noticed my 73 book only has one engine bay diagram & it's not even B line.

Either your book is missing pages or you've got the Body manual. There are two manuals for both 1973 and 1974: Chassis and Body. They do not repeat much information between the two, but the wiring diagrams comprise about 40 pages across both manuals; most of the useful diagrams including the stuff on which we're working is in the Chassis service manual.

Now the new harness except for the lockout should be plug & play if I'm going back to all stock parts.

"Should be" and "will be" are two very different things. If it's all stock, Cavity 19 would have continuity to a pin in the interlock connector, which is apparently missing. For the car to have started normally before, it had to have 12V+ on Cavity 19. It most definitely did, but I was looking at the wrong side of the bulkhead to figure out how that voltage was getting there. I assumed, wrongly, that it was done behind the dash (possibly with a 1973 harness) and I got fixated on that. I'm now 100% sure it was done in the engine bay, and the voltage at 19 was a back-feed from that God-awful butchery involving a lot of yellow wires and a toggle switch.

OK another problem, my steering harness only has 7 pins
Starting at one end
1 yellow
2 black (thick)
3 blue w/w*
4 brown
5 red (thick)
6 double orange
7 black & black w/y* (both in one pin)

In that picture, I see eight pins in your column connector, and two black wires. One black wire should have a yellow tracer and one should have a white tracer. The one with the white tracer should be on the end. Zooming in, it looks like there's a twist in that wiring right at the connector--is that making you think they both go in the same pin? They shouldn't.

I know all this diagnostic isn't a cake-walk for you, Rusty, but when all this is finished my goal is simply this:

• You connect the battery
• Nothing starts smoking or burning
• Twisting the key cranks the starter
• The engine runs

It might seem like I'm being a vicious task-master, but it's not my intent a'tall. It might be frustrating now, but it'll be far more frustrating if "first start" doesn't go as I've outlined.

I believe I know exactly what's going on here, and how one of the previous owners made the car start normally. I think you're going to be just fine with the harness you bought, but please finish the few tasks I've asked:

• Check the W terminal (plain brown wire) at the wiper switch against 9 and 19
• Determine where the wire without continuity stops (it will be either 18BR or 18Y*)
• Verify the two black wires at the column connector are on separate pins (I think they are)
• Don't check anything else!

We'll make this plug and play, I promise. I'll probably need to send you one more part, but I'll need to modify it first. Luckily for you, I bought a '74 parts car with the interlock intact. We're gonna make yours look intact, original, and functional, but bypass the interlock entirely. No hanging wires, no "what's supposed to be here?" and no surgery.

I'm sorry I'm so dense, but this car is not making any sense.

You're not dense, you're just frustrated. In your frustration, you start trying things that don't apply ("shotgunning"--although your accidental verification of Cavity 22 worked out nicely) and trying to absorb a complex system all at once, rather than one chunk at a time.

Believe me, this has generated a couple of headaches on my end. It's also torn up a ton of hours trying to figure out exactly what the hell was done (this post alone has taken almost three). I now firmly believe I've got it nailed. The light-bulb moment was realizing a previous owner bypassed the interlock completely in the engine compartment--something I should've noticed or realized sooner. My apologies for that. It ain't easy from 1,000 miles away.

I still want to make sure everything's electrically sound before you attempt to light 'er up. Humor me one more time, and I'll be able to both explain everything and get you what you need to finish this nightmare.

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

Hell no, I'm not upset with you, again, you have gone way above anything some acquaintance from 1000 miles away could ever expect.

Hmmm that's why I mentioned that both 19 & 20 look like interlock wires.

I went back & counted the pins, I will do it again, I saw one of the blacks had a tracer I'll double check the other today.

I'll also pull the wiper switch & get that one done.

I have the chassis book also I will check it.

Damn I see 8 in the pic too!

OK, what did I miss?

I'll post up in a couple of hours (I hope) the 9 & 19 results, to the wiper switch & look around for another wire hanging around under there.

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

Ready for another headache!!!!!!!!!
Nothing from 9 or 19 at the brown wire, also checked all the other wires on the switch NADA.
Now I stuck the prob in at the switch & started poking around in the bulkhead, I got continuity in cavity 24 (which is marked as brake warning with a Brown wire!)

I took some pics of any dangling wires under there & what do you know I found the interlock module when I took the switch out, how I could forget that piece that I just put in a month ago is beyond me.
wires

I did move those wires away from the metal on the module when I saw that!

 

[Dr.Jass]

Ready for another headache!!!!!!!!!
Nothing from 9 or 19 at the brown wire, also checked all the other wires on the switch NADA.
Now I stuck the prob in at the switch & started poking around in the bulkhead, I got continuity in cavity 24 (which is marked as brake warning with a Brown wire!)

Something's horseshit here. You should have continuity between Cavity 9 and the plain brown wire at the wiper switch. That wire leaves the wiper switch and goes straight through the firewall to the washer pump. This is true whether you have 2- or 3-speed wipers (you appear to have 3-speed based on the switch). This shouldn't blow anything up, but functioning washers are nice. Are you 100% sure you had good contact on both ends?

Now that you've found the interlock module, I'll refrain from explaining how much time knowing that module was there would've saved us. However, I'll bet you a fresh fish that testing continuity between the Y* wire on the module plug (end cavity on the 9-pin plug, near center of module) and Cavity 19 on the bulkhead will net you a beep. This also means the wire I expected to be dangling or moved behind the dash is exactly where it should be, which is nice.

Leave the interlock module as-is, in place and connected. I'm still trying to figure out this "brake warning lamp" versus "washer pump" continuity issue.

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

Sorry mann, I'll see if I can get to the wire on the interlock module at least that will confirm 19 then if I get lucky & happen on where 9 actually goes in the monster that might help you!

So after those tests I decided I have to start getting some parts on this car, so I put in the drivers side rear exhaust hanger & took a look see at the brackets that I have to bolt into the seat pans!

Even that is a little screwed, they say 7 1/2 off the driver's rail & 7 3/4 off the passenger rail, but they DON'T say how high or low.
I looked closely at the pans, there no sign that a bracket was ever there. So when I set the drivers side one 7 1/2 from the rail it starts to creep up the slope in the matal on the rail side?
On the passenger side it stays on the flat width wise but hit the slope in the metal at the top, The higher you go the worse the gap gets?

So I dug out the hangers to see if that would give me an idea where to drill , looks like pretty flush on the bottom, in this pic it's not all the way up, when lifted it looks like it straightens the tips out?
Just hung the middle on some wire
Slid the rear into the new bracket, now I have to get the rear valance hung to set it, there's not a lot of play in those holes!

I'm trying to set up some help to drop the motor in, I think what I will do is lay it all out loosely & then try & mark the holes for drilling the seat pan , nothing is easy on this car!

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

It's amazing they had the hole & the slot on the rails for these if they don't even go on the car!

 

[b-body-bob]

mark the holes for drilling the seat pan

Look around before you start, there might be a dimple marking the floorboard for the assembly line workers.

 

[Dr.Jass]

Based on my experience hanging exhaust on the Valiant, I don't think I'd even attempt starting at it until the engine and headers were in the car and the rear valance mounted.

Work back to front. You know where the tips have to be to look right coming through the valance. With that as a hard point you work your way forward, making adjustments to the slip fits/collectors as necessary.

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

Yep, they said work back to front.
I'll dig out the hardware for the valance tomorrow (yea if that didn't walk off too) & at least get the back pipe close, the reason I want the motor in is there's nothing but those hangers to hold up anything in the middle, then I can lay it all out & check clearances & mark the holes for drilling.


I didn't see anything from underneath, I never got around to checking inside, will do that next time out!

Thanks Guys!

 

[Dr.Jass]

The reason why you can't figure out where those floor brackets go is because they (supposedly) weren't used after 1971. 1972 and newer B and E-bodies had hangers that mount up by the shock absorbers. Look back at this picture of your car. Look at the forward edge of the shock crossmember and you'll see two bolt holes close to each other on either side of the car. Those were for mounting these:



There were no hangers forward of the shock crossmember on cars so equipped. The problem with the '72-'74 hangers is twofold: They're brutally expensive ($250+/pr), and they only fit factory-sized pipes (2"). They won't work with oversize TTi exhaust.[/URL]

Cars that used the four-bolt sandwich-style driver's-side floorpan bracket provided with your TTi system had the passenger's side bracket welded to the floor. Since it was non-servicable, there was no part number for the RH floor bracket. TTi merely made something to work. LH/RH hangers were the same.[/URL]

This is why there's no evidence of a bracket on the right side, nor any holes/guidance dimples on either side. You're essentially converting to the 1970-'71 arrangment by installing a factory-style LH hanger bracket, and a RH hanger bracket that never existed.[/URL]

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

De Ja Vous!
When I was under there yesterday I saw those 4 u-nuts & said to myself I better find out what goes there before I block things off!

I was thinking of trying to back trace the wiper washer motor wire on the old harness to see if I can find where it went, with that mess I have no idea if it will work, might be worth a try?

now that the wiring is on hold I have a million things I can do & I don't know where to start!