My 71 Duster work in progress

[b-body-bob]

it really can't be the rear socket.

Yes you're right.

I've still got everything finger tight so I'll just take it all back apart and mess with it some more.

 

[b-body-bob]

And I just noticed



That is with the torsion bar started in the front socket.

<Sigh> Kids, don't ever take your k-frame out.

I think all the suspension parts are still loose so cutting it free from that isn't a huge deal. But I might end up pulling the column out again. I had to drive the pin in that to put the spring clip on. I had to know that would work, so I kind of had no choice on that.

I wonder what's up with the fuel line where it comes through the frame?

I'm going to go mow the grass to help me remember there actually are worse things than this Duster project.

 

[b-body-bob]

Stuck a jack under it and took one bolt at a time out. Can't tell anything really, due to the parallax effect.

This is the first one I took loose. You can't tell the hole is lined up or not, but the witness mark might be telling us something. I dunno.


Also, I forgot about leaving a piece of masking tape on the frame rail. I put it there to help with lining things up.


I don't know how much I need to take apart here. I guess the knuckle from the UCA, shock unbolted from the body, all that is still hanging loose so NBD. I need to loosen up the trans mount because I tightened that up the other day. Will probably end up loosening up the motor mounts again once I've got the TB in place but would rather leave them tight for right now since I'll be lifting the whole thing on the cherry picker. And I guess I should try to leave the TBs in place and be sure to check both sides before breaking out the impact to bolt the k-frame in place.

Speaking of the picker, it's tight under the car with it in place because of the legs. Hopefully I can stay out from under the thing. I think I can finagle the TBs from behind the wheel and I think that is clear. Need another person, but Gina's tending to her Ma so I'm going to wing it alone. Too much up and down for this old guy.

 

[Dr.Jass]

You did not torque the LCA stud nuts yet, correct? Those don't get torqued until the suspension is completely assembled and the car is sitting on its own weight, as I recall. It's been a few years since last I dealt with this. I'm just wondering if the LCA isn't cocked to one side. I can't say torquing the stud early would cause that, but I'm sorta at a loss for this misalignment thing. There ain't that much play in the K-member mounting.

 

[b-body-bob]

No man the LCA is all but out at this point. I have the UCA disconnected, the trans mount loose, the trans sitting on my wheeled jack, you name it I tried it to give me as much play as possible, but that bar will not go in. There was a couple times when it was getting closer, then I'd pull on one side or the other and it'd be right back where it is now.

At this point I'm inclined to agree it's got something to do with the LCA.

I'm tempted to drive the bar in while the K-frame is loose, tighten it up, call it as good as it gets.

BTW there's really only one place the torsion bar lever works, right? It would be a mess if I drove the bar in then couldn't set the ride height. It's between level and pointing downward now. Before I took everything loose it was basically pushed down toward the adjuster as far as it would go. I tried moving it away from the adjuster and that was obviously wrong. Moving it CW is not going to work because then the adjuster is in the way. So it seems like there's only one place it can work..

 

[b-body-bob]

I'm just wondering if the LCA isn't cocked to one side. I can't say torquing the stud early would cause that, but I'm sorta at a loss for this misalignment thing. There ain't that much play in the K-member mounting.

I noticed that once everything was way loose, the LCA socket would move up and down. But not when it's just loose.

 

[Dr.Jass]

BTW there's really only one place the torsion bar lever works, right? It would be a mess if I drove the bar in then couldn't set the ride height. It's between level and pointing downward now.

Yes, it only works one way. This is one of those instances where I sorta forgot how the arrangement works.

I went out and looked at one of my still-assembled lower control arms (even the torsion bar's still in it) that I got from that long-ago-wrecked blue Challenger last summer. The key on which the adjuster bolt pushes can't interfere with the torsion bar installation. The bar doesn't go that far into the arm. We'll speak no further of this.

This image still causes me issue:

How can the torsion bar be that crooked? The LCA is literally straight ahead of it. Being off half an inch there is like 2" at the control arm. Even the completely wrong control arm would still fit OK at the K-member end so long as it had a torsion-bar socket. Sheesh.

Something has to be tweaked. I don't know if it's the car, the K-member, the control arm or your nose but something ain't right there. At this point, after all the header anguish, my suspicions lie with the K-member. I know Agnes was crashed fairly hard; the evidence is still there and visible:




...yet that car went together without any of this kind of drama.

 

[b-body-bob]

Something has to be tweaked. I don't know if it's the car, the K-member, the control arm or your nose but something ain't right there.

It could be my nose, it gets out of joint sometimes when I work on these junkers.

It almost has to be the LCA. The bottom of the k-frame is kind of concave from years of lifting the car there but otherwise no damage. As I've said before, there's no obvious damage to the car - out of place welds, wrinkles, evidence of hammering, etc.

I just got tired of it and gave up yesterday.

Someone at FABO asked where I put the stands and mentioned it could be frame flex? That's something I hadn't considered. It does seem to flex a bit when I put it on the stands, some pops and creaks are heard. The stands are under the front rails, in front of the TB x-member, with stands under the rear axle.

 

[b-body-bob]

Stands are still in the same place. Should I move them back toward the torsion bar x-member?



I don't think the car is sagging because it's not and never has been rotted or cut apart. At this point I'll try anything.

 

[Dr.Jass]

It almost has to be the LCA. The bottom of the k-frame is kind of concave from years of lifting the car there but otherwise no damage. As I've said before, there's no obvious damage to the car - out of place welds, wrinkles, evidence of hammering, etc.

I'm not sure on this. None of my K-members are concave from lifting. I'm wondering if it didn't hit something and tweak it. If metal moves in one place, it's gotta move in another too. I can absolutely see where upward force on the bottom could change the angle in the stud tubes.

Speaking of the stud tubes, we probably already covered this (and it's nothing to do with the current problem) but double-check where they're welded to the K-member. Cracks are not uncommon. If the tube lets go it's a nightmare to get apart.

Stands are still in the same place. Should I move them back toward the torsion bar x-member?

I don't think the car is sagging because it's not and never has been rotted or cut apart. At this point I'll try anything.

We had Agnes supported in approximately the same area, maybe a little further back. If anything, I'd say moving the stands back would make it sag more--your weight is further away from the fulcrum.

 

[b-body-bob]

None of my K-members are concave from lifting

Calling it concave might have been a little exaggeration. The top under the engine and all that is smooth. If the bottom moved enough to change the pivot, the top would've had to move too. I'll try to remember to snap a photo so you can see what I'm talking about WRT the bottom of it

We had Agnes supported in approximately the same area, maybe a little further back

Before the day's over I'm going to try at least two things - raise the car up by the floor jack off the stands, see if that changes anything. Then while it's up, move the stands back and see if that makes a difference.

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

I did notice when I had mine way up, jack stands under the body as far forward as I could get & rear stands under the axles my doors didn't open as nice? guess the weight up front tugs on it some!

 

[b-body-bob]

OK, I picked the car up under the k-frame. No change in TB situation.

I moved the jackstands toward the TB x-member. The door wouldn't open. No change in TB situation.

Put the stands back where they were. Door opens fine again.

 

[b-body-bob]

Next I took the knuckle off the LCA so there's no weight hanging off the end of that. Then I loosened the pivot up all the way and was able to get the front of the bar all the way in the socket. but that was because the LCA moved rearward with the pivot loose. I still have about 1/4" hanging out the back, plus the 1/8" or so it takes for the clip.

When I tighten the LCA pivot, and try to shove the bar forward, the bar doesn't move and the LCA socket just pulls off the bar as the pivot tightens up.

I guess the next thing to do is to pull the LCA off and photograph the heck out of everything to see what can be seen. Gotta say though that the torsion bar went in easy when I rebuilt the front end, and it came back out easy when I removed the k-frame. I haven't driven 100 miles in the stupid thing since it went back together, and it's not like I was going all Bo and Luke Duke in it, but I'm out of ideas besides to keep taking things apart.

 

[Dr.Jass]

Next I took the knuckle off the LCA so there's no weight hanging off the end of that. Then I loosened the pivot up all the way and was able to get the front of the bar all the way in the socket. but that was because the LCA moved rearward with the pivot loose. I still have about 1/4" hanging out the back, plus the 1/8" or so it takes for the clip.

When I tighten the LCA pivot, and try to shove the bar forward, the bar doesn't move and the LCA socket just pulls off the bar as the pivot tightens up.

Well that's damned frustrating.

Out of curiosity (and ideas, essentially), have you checked the childre... er, for straightness? Set it on the concrete and rolled it over its flats? Another silly idea is have you tried to install it, it won't go, so you twist it 60° to the next flat and try it again? Of course it's silly, I just said it was!

I guess the next thing to do is to pull the LCA off and photograph the heck out of everything to see what can be seen. Gotta say though that the torsion bar went in easy when I rebuilt the front end, and it came back out easy when I removed the k-frame. I haven't driven 100 miles in the stupid thing since it went back together, and it's not like I was going all Bo and Luke Duke in it, but I'm out of ideas besides to keep taking things apart.

I was not aware that you'd been here before with the same car and didn't have problems that go-round. That changes my tune significantly because it kind of eliminates crash damage unless you crashed it and ain't talkin'.

When I tighten the LCA pivot, and try to shove the bar forward, the bar doesn't move and the LCA socket just pulls off the bar as the pivot tightens up.

Let's revisit this for a moment.

Both hexes will move through the crossmember socket without difficulty. With the LCA stud loose and the arm itself pulled back, the hex goes into the arm socket without (much) sailor talk. When you pull the stud forward with the nut, it pulls the socket off the hex. Everything's loose in the front end so there's no shortage of wiggle room.

The bar's contacting something. It has to be. My brain wants to blame the header, but I've grown to hate those things nearly as much as you. Perhaps I'm a bit biased.

Snug the LCA stud again and try it with a broomstick, approximate length of pipe, an extraordinarily-large spaghetti noodle (uncooked, of course)... whatever. See if you can go all the way through the rear socket and bottom it in the LCA. If you really want to be clever, you could wrap your chosen weapon of destruction with tape at one end to the approximate size of the torsion bar across the flats. Extra credit if you do another tape wrap at the distance defined by the bar's hexes.

I'm spitballin' here, man. I'm as confused as you.

 

[b-body-bob]

straightness

Yes, did that last night actually. No problem.

eliminates crash damage

Some people at FABO have suggested that maybe the car/k-frame was tweaked and the k-frame bolts were holding it in place. Unbolting the k-frame released the tweak, then it bolted back in the tweaked place. I don't tweaking believe that for a minute.

The bar's contacting something. It has to be. My brain wants to blame the header, but I've grown to hate those things nearly as much as you. Perhaps I'm a bit biased.

Not the header, not even close that I can see. I think it's just crooked enough that the hex hits inside the socket. I also think I'm getting really close to just pounding it in and reassembling the car so I can at least start the damned thing to break it in.

 

[b-body-bob]

OK, none of the following worked. The best I could do was to lift the forward edge of the k-frame, but that wedged the bar in tighter. I always thought the really bad off center photo looked like the k-frame/LCA needs to move downward to correct that. (The side to side at that point is improved but it still seems to be angling the bar upward)

FWIW this is an idea we haven't tried yet from FABO:

Look at the torsion bar socket misalignment in this picture. The back of the socket is facing UP. To me, that says the frame in FRONT of the jack stand is drooping DOWN. Here's what I would try. Get on the frame rail well in front of that jack stand with your floor jack. You'll need a 2x4 or 4x4 to reach it of course and jack up on the front of that frame rail then check the torsion bar socket alignment and see what it looks like.

I'm not sure what he means by the back of the socket is facing UP, I think he's talking about the angle of the bar out of the socket, but that's just the bar laying with the hex out of the socket. Still, it will take just a minute to try.

This is the photo he refers to.

It's going to be something dumb simple like this.

 

[b-body-bob]

FWIW I also tried lifting the LF corner of the car, no help.

The header is in the way of removing the LCA but here are some photos.

 

[Dr.Jass]

I'm pretty certain I already said this, but I'll say it again:

Take the strut rod out. Completely. Get it out of the way entirely.

 

[b-body-bob]

I'm pretty certain I already said this, but I'll say it again:

Take the strut rod out. Completely. Get it out of the way entirely.

It's been unbolted and unbushed for a long time. I just checked, the FSM doesn't mention taking the strut off the arm with the arm in place. If I can't take it off separately I'll need to unbolt the header to get it out.

I don't exactly remember but have a memory of the socket in the arm being hex so it will hold itself.

ETA: I looked at ebay photos and there is no hex on the strut rod so I will have to hold it with vice grips to remove the nut whether the arm is hanging on the k-frame or not.