b-body-bob
Well-known member
OK I'll give you that but I think back in those days it was less about the union and more about how much weed they were smoking OTJ.
My 71 Duster work in progress
- Thread starter b-body-bob
- Start date
b-body-bob
Well-known member
This shows the first bolt I took loose, note it isn't centered and the k-frame is otherwise bolted in place.
Note how far the header moved based on that diagonal scratch
I initially made that sharpie mark right against the coupler.
There's now about 1/4" between the tubes and the steering gear box you can see there at the bottom left where I had smashed it a little, now not needed.
Note how far the header moved based on that diagonal scratch
I initially made that sharpie mark right against the coupler.
There's now about 1/4" between the tubes and the steering gear box you can see there at the bottom left where I had smashed it a little, now not needed.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
That's why steering columns and coupler bodies are always nice and shiny, and not covered in mystery grime buildup, right? Seriously, I've had enough old-car hoods open to know the coupler needs to be sealed. It might not get wet, but engine bays still get plenty of dust and dirt sucked through 'em. Ever seen the firewall on a well-used Slant Six car? The driver's side often looks like it's been sandblasted:
That damage was caused by dirt, propelled by the fan. Hence sealing the coupler, using an air cleaner, etc. Also, check out the filth caked on the coupler body and column.
That sounds like an excellent solution. It's just a mass-produced, low-tolerance part, hence the overhang present on virtually every seal retainer I've seen. I've no doubt it could be trimmed back to the same outer dimensions of the coupler body with little to no effect on its function. It's the cheapest part possible that would do the job. Trim away.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
I'm not buying that it's a danger or even important but I'm going to take it apart and fix at it anyway.
I just went to measure it and noticed that it actually does touch the header if I turn it clockwise.
I just went to measure it and noticed that it actually does touch the header if I turn it clockwise.
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b-body-bob
Well-known member
No the pin is not in it. And now that I think about it I slipped it back halfway on the splines before I talked myself out of working last night so that is probably what is going on.
I ordered a new cover and seal and one of those wire retainers. Hopefully that thing will work to hold it together after some trimming on the cover.
I ordered a new cover and seal and one of those wire retainers. Hopefully that thing will work to hold it together after some trimming on the cover.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
Noticed the truck mount has dimples on both sides where the A-body part only has them on one. The extra dimple is closer to the stud so it would tend to align the mount with the k-frame slot. Gonna buyone and find out.
The cover and seal just ain't going to work where the engine is. I'm going to try one more time, and failing that, drop the header and break out the torch and hammer.
Now that I've got the coupler off the column it's a lot easier to check fit. It still goes in at the one correct angle for the gear box, no wiggling around.
The cover and seal just ain't going to work where the engine is. I'm going to try one more time, and failing that, drop the header and break out the torch and hammer.
Now that I've got the coupler off the column it's a lot easier to check fit. It still goes in at the one correct angle for the gear box, no wiggling around.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
Madness. Put the truck mount on, plenty of clearance at the steering box but no better at the coupler. Take that off, put the car mount on and it's up against the steering box again unless I have a pile of shims, give up and put the truck mount back on then find out the torsion bar hits the header now. Back to the car mount and stack-o-shims to find the point where the torsion bar slips in and then beat the heck out of the header to get it past the steering column.
If there was a local deal, I'd be tempted to trade these stupid headers for a set of manifolds and move on
If there was a local deal, I'd be tempted to trade these stupid headers for a set of manifolds and move on
b-body-bob
Well-known member
Car mount back in place, 1/4" shim, engine shoved to the passenger side and level, coupler without cap hits the header, passenger side torsion bar is against the header. Have to move the engine to the driver side to get it off the torsion bar. Will make coupler interference worse and reduce clearance to the steering box.
I am glad I found the k-frame was off square but everything past that has been a waste of time. I'm just going to have to knock a huge dent in the tube and shake my head and walk away from anyone that wants to put a set of headers on an a-body with power steering.
I am glad I found the k-frame was off square but everything past that has been a waste of time. I'm just going to have to knock a huge dent in the tube and shake my head and walk away from anyone that wants to put a set of headers on an a-body with power steering.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
I'm absolutely out of suggestions. If everything measures out as it should, I can't see what's going on short of defective headers. The only other thing that comes to mind is if Edelbrock heads have raised exhaust ports, but would that explain/solve the torsion-bar clearance issue? I guess I'm unclear of where that issue occurs.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
AFAIK Edelbrocks are externally same as factory as far as bolting parts to them goes.
I think it's basically caused by a need to move it to the passenger side. Because of the nature of the mount, moving it to one side means you have to raise that side so you have to shim the other side to keep the engine level.
The shimming and moving causes the headers to hit one torsion bar or the other, whether I make the changes together, or individually.
If I just drop it straight in, like a person would normally do, the header sits right against the steering box and the interference with the coupler is much worse..
I guess what I need to do is to make micro moves to get it as far to the passenger side as I can without hitting anything, then mark and dent the header. Sounds relatively simple but the hard part is that I have to lift the engine to get the header out, and then it's going to be near impossible to get the engine back in the same place.
I don't mean to call anyone a liar, but I've got a quarter that says the majority of people who say the D-453s fit their cars without problem don't have power steering.
I could call the Doug's but thinking they're going to be in a hurry to help is wishful thinking. "All the other ones fit, and they're built by a machine so they're all the same; can't be our fault." Second thing, "your car has been wrecked and is bent." No it hasn't but that is where the conversation ends because I can't prove it. The last time I called they told me to go ahead and dent it, won't hurt the warranty which is expired now anyway.
This has successfully sucked all the joy out of the project. The only reason I'm looking forward to it running is so I can move it out of my way. I also expect the engine to fail in one way or another before it's broken in. It's just the way it's going - why would anything change?
I think it's basically caused by a need to move it to the passenger side. Because of the nature of the mount, moving it to one side means you have to raise that side so you have to shim the other side to keep the engine level.
The shimming and moving causes the headers to hit one torsion bar or the other, whether I make the changes together, or individually.
If I just drop it straight in, like a person would normally do, the header sits right against the steering box and the interference with the coupler is much worse..
I guess what I need to do is to make micro moves to get it as far to the passenger side as I can without hitting anything, then mark and dent the header. Sounds relatively simple but the hard part is that I have to lift the engine to get the header out, and then it's going to be near impossible to get the engine back in the same place.
I don't mean to call anyone a liar, but I've got a quarter that says the majority of people who say the D-453s fit their cars without problem don't have power steering.
I could call the Doug's but thinking they're going to be in a hurry to help is wishful thinking. "All the other ones fit, and they're built by a machine so they're all the same; can't be our fault." Second thing, "your car has been wrecked and is bent." No it hasn't but that is where the conversation ends because I can't prove it. The last time I called they told me to go ahead and dent it, won't hurt the warranty which is expired now anyway.
This has successfully sucked all the joy out of the project. The only reason I'm looking forward to it running is so I can move it out of my way. I also expect the engine to fail in one way or another before it's broken in. It's just the way it's going - why would anything change?
RUSTY Cuda
In over my head!
Crapola mann, I think it's time for both of us to break out a bottle of rum & have one good day!
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
I know you squared the K-member, but did you move it to its maximum RH travel? I honestly doubt there's enough there to make the difference, but every sixteenth helps at this point.
I understand your frustration and experienced it first-hand when I was building Agnes' engine. There were a ton of trials in that build, including the very-well-documented battle--nay, war, for there were several battles--with the valvetrain. I didn't actually build the engine nor have any idea who did the machine work. I was convinced it would come apart on startup. But it didn't, and there was much rejoicing. I actually drove the car around a little and had an enormous feeling of accomplishment. You'll get there, I assure you. You'll remember the suffering and frustration, no doubt, but will be worth it when in moves under its own power: "I did it. I won."
Perfectionism is a tough row to hoe on these old beasts. Thank God I was rarely beyond "good enough" with Agnes because the ol' girl simply doesn't warrant such detail, but that valvetrain was nightmarish. That had to be as close to perfect as I could manage without $2,000+ rockers. Everything about those W2s was a nightmare. I don't know if you followed along, but machining gaskets--both intake and valve cover--was something I'd never pictured myself doing. Just when I thought I had everything dicked, it dicked me right back. Burnt and very-expensive pushrods, wiped rockers, smote shafts--that valvetrain had it all (thanks Sealed Power!).
I'm still mid-head change nearly three years later, and at this point I'm considering pulling the whole engine for a piston swap. Regardless, it's not so much frustration that's kept me from it as it was a change of seasons. The Challenger evacuated the garage late in the year, and I decided a rearrangement and cleaning was in order over the winter before Agnes took its spot. That turned into quite its own project. A bunch of other crap happened in the meantime that kept my attention elsewhere. Now Agnes is front and center, hoarding space in the garage, so it's time to get after whatever it is I'm going to do, be it the heads alone or the whole piston job... but, I remember it running and me driving it. That was a massive accomplishment after all the work we'd done to that silly car (floors, frame rails, reinventing the rear suspension, full 4-speed conversion, etc. ad nauseum). Am I frustrated? Of course, but not enough so to abandon it entirely. I've heard this thing run. I've driven it. That's enough motivation to revisit it and make the necessary changes, if not to such a degree as to be detrimental to all other things that came along in the meantime. Also, it's hard to get motivated when you're doing something you've already done.
Nobody wants to ding their brand-new, expensive headers that were supposed to fit. I completely understand where you stand. That being said, ding 'em and move on.
Remember, you need precious little clearance anywhere on the driver's side, since by nature the engine is going to move away from that side under throttle. There's almost none on Agnes at the (manual) steering box, but even with the ginormous rumpety cam the two have never contacted. 1/8" is probably enough, 3/16" is plenty. Since the engine also rises as it counter-rotates, just make sure that little bit of clearance extends down far enough to clear the coupler, since it seems that's the real thorn here. Instead of just using a hammer, see if you can find an old socket extension, or a chisel of which you don't mind blunting the edge with a grinder. Local heat with a propane torch is plenty, and less damaging. Small, precise dings hurt less in the end, both from the final aesthetic and "I can't believe I'm intentionally damaging new parts" standpoints.
You've reached the point of acceptance, so do what you must and keep moving. Spending literal weeks on this has sucked more joy from the project than doing what you must and hitting the next phase would've.
I understand your frustration and experienced it first-hand when I was building Agnes' engine. There were a ton of trials in that build, including the very-well-documented battle--nay, war, for there were several battles--with the valvetrain. I didn't actually build the engine nor have any idea who did the machine work. I was convinced it would come apart on startup. But it didn't, and there was much rejoicing. I actually drove the car around a little and had an enormous feeling of accomplishment. You'll get there, I assure you. You'll remember the suffering and frustration, no doubt, but will be worth it when in moves under its own power: "I did it. I won."
Perfectionism is a tough row to hoe on these old beasts. Thank God I was rarely beyond "good enough" with Agnes because the ol' girl simply doesn't warrant such detail, but that valvetrain was nightmarish. That had to be as close to perfect as I could manage without $2,000+ rockers. Everything about those W2s was a nightmare. I don't know if you followed along, but machining gaskets--both intake and valve cover--was something I'd never pictured myself doing. Just when I thought I had everything dicked, it dicked me right back. Burnt and very-expensive pushrods, wiped rockers, smote shafts--that valvetrain had it all (thanks Sealed Power!).
I'm still mid-head change nearly three years later, and at this point I'm considering pulling the whole engine for a piston swap. Regardless, it's not so much frustration that's kept me from it as it was a change of seasons. The Challenger evacuated the garage late in the year, and I decided a rearrangement and cleaning was in order over the winter before Agnes took its spot. That turned into quite its own project. A bunch of other crap happened in the meantime that kept my attention elsewhere. Now Agnes is front and center, hoarding space in the garage, so it's time to get after whatever it is I'm going to do, be it the heads alone or the whole piston job... but, I remember it running and me driving it. That was a massive accomplishment after all the work we'd done to that silly car (floors, frame rails, reinventing the rear suspension, full 4-speed conversion, etc. ad nauseum). Am I frustrated? Of course, but not enough so to abandon it entirely. I've heard this thing run. I've driven it. That's enough motivation to revisit it and make the necessary changes, if not to such a degree as to be detrimental to all other things that came along in the meantime. Also, it's hard to get motivated when you're doing something you've already done.
Nobody wants to ding their brand-new, expensive headers that were supposed to fit. I completely understand where you stand. That being said, ding 'em and move on.
Remember, you need precious little clearance anywhere on the driver's side, since by nature the engine is going to move away from that side under throttle. There's almost none on Agnes at the (manual) steering box, but even with the ginormous rumpety cam the two have never contacted. 1/8" is probably enough, 3/16" is plenty. Since the engine also rises as it counter-rotates, just make sure that little bit of clearance extends down far enough to clear the coupler, since it seems that's the real thorn here. Instead of just using a hammer, see if you can find an old socket extension, or a chisel of which you don't mind blunting the edge with a grinder. Local heat with a propane torch is plenty, and less damaging. Small, precise dings hurt less in the end, both from the final aesthetic and "I can't believe I'm intentionally damaging new parts" standpoints.
You've reached the point of acceptance, so do what you must and keep moving. Spending literal weeks on this has sucked more joy from the project than doing what you must and hitting the next phase would've.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
ha ha ha ha
I've got a 2" iron pipe that I'm using as a die. Even with that, things end up in the wrong place, at the wrong angle, you name it. Precision isn't even a stretch goal at this point.
First I've got to figure out where it needs to be so it the engine doesn't just go left until it hits the steering box. Which is what it does if I just drop it in like a normal person would do. Then I get to unbolt all that, lift it up to get the header out, then pray I can get it all back in the same place so the dent is where I expect it to be and the torsion bars fit. This is way more complicated than it should be.
This is all because power steering. I've even got a b-body manual box here that I could have used. Way to use that big brain Bob.
What I did was get it square to the frame rail in the front, then get the tailshaft centered up to where I can get the bolts to start in that, then shove it as far back as I could go.
There's not enough play in any of this to make a difference.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
Self-marking bullshit. The largest part of that is from the coupler hitting the tube.
Hard to tell but it's dented. A lot.
Then I'm moving forward, putting the starter on, and I notice the stupid terminal to header interference again. I swear I'm tempted to take it apart one more time to ding it there if I can get to it. Fucking thing could burn the car down.
BTW, good thing I put all that white paint on it, innit? I came into this expecting the steering to just slot in. So much for expectations.
All in all, worst headers ever based on their claims. Saying these "fit" a power steering car is a joke.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
Well, if it makes you feel any better, and I'm sure it doesn't, at one point I expected a mid-10 compression, solid-roller, W2-headed, high-RPM beast to breathe through this, which is what Stretch and I did to clear the manual box with NOS Doug Thorleys and home-made W2/factory LA port adapters:
I'm sure it's well below half its original cross-sectional area.
Yours is fairly precision by comparison, truth be known, but we needed to make a lot of clearance at that steering gear. We never even considered the coupler, and power steering would've required hood-exit zoomies.
I actually plan to cut that section out and repair it with part of a scrap Cragar header I've got... someday.
I'm sure it's well below half its original cross-sectional area.
Yours is fairly precision by comparison, truth be known, but we needed to make a lot of clearance at that steering gear. We never even considered the coupler, and power steering would've required hood-exit zoomies.I actually plan to cut that section out and repair it with part of a scrap Cragar header I've got... someday.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
As a member of the internet I am required to post that RoadKill did a dyno test that showed it really doesn't matter how bad you beat them up. /s
I went back under and pulled that rubber cap off the terminal on the starter. The rubber is right against the header, but there's at least 1/4" between the tube and terminal. The starter and header aren't going to move so it's never going to touch. I'm not messing with it.
I am gun shy about assembling things at this point. I've got a honey-do job tomorrow so I will have time to convince myself this will be the last time I have to put things together. It's time for those danged clips again.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
I think that would be more frustration than just unbolting it, picking the engine up a little, and taking it out to bang on it.
Yeah, too late now thank goodness it's getting close to done.