My 71 Duster work in progress
- Thread starter b-body-bob
- Start date
b-body-bob
Well-known member
I don't know how one would measure that and know that there's nothing that I'm going to do to change it short of putting a small block in it.
Also, the whole damned car vibrates and rattles because of the solid mounting. I do not like the engine mounting at all, for any reason. There are better ways to do it.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
I won't even run urethane engine/transmission mounts for exactly that reason. There were a few times in the past when I'd looked at elephant ears as an "easy" solution to putting a 440 where it never grew. That I considered doing it makes me shudder now. Thankfully, the pulley-alignment nightmares alone were enough to stop me at the time, so I never had to discover firsthand how much I'd have hated them.
It does sound like that engine's awfully high up front. That's going to mess with your driveline angle to some extent... hopefully not enough to create serious issues, but if you have mystery vibration later that's the first place I'd look.
RUSTY Cuda
In over my head!
Who ever built the 73 had solid motor mounts, the whole car shook, lucky it was just the same ole 360, I just put in standard mounts.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
I typically use one solid and one rubber mount with the solid one on the driver's side.
I doubt that a driveline vibration is going to be any worse than what the ears transfer into the car, so I might not even notice it until it breaks something.
That is why I never considered doing anything for the engine but getting it to run right. The ears have got to go, so the big block does too. I was day-dreaming about a modified k-frame or a rare-as-hens-teeth Schumacher mount kit, but realized that anyway I go a big block a-body is nothing but expense and trouble.
I doubt that a driveline vibration is going to be any worse than what the ears transfer into the car, so I might not even notice it until it breaks something.
That is why I never considered doing anything for the engine but getting it to run right. The ears have got to go, so the big block does too. I was day-dreaming about a modified k-frame or a rare-as-hens-teeth Schumacher mount kit, but realized that anyway I go a big block a-body is nothing but expense and trouble.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
It's not good. Photo taken with camera on the fender. The MC is basically level, but it's all at some odd angle.
It's never been a problem before, because it wasn't driven, but now that I've got license on it maybe I should try to correct that some by shimming the tailshaft. It looks like it's at the point I need all the tilt I can get. I might need to loosen up the ears at the frame before raising the transmission or risk tweaking them.
RUSTY Cuda
In over my head!
Still a newbie after20 years, so whats the idea of solid mounts, just so you don't pull the rubber apart in a souped up car?
I assume the guy intended to race the 73, solid mounts, traction bars that I chucked (they were bolted in) & a tranny that kicks out shifts at 6200 when left in drive & you just use the kick down from a roll.
I took it on the highway a few times & she does haul ass but it's more power than this old man will ever use!
I assume the guy intended to race the 73, solid mounts, traction bars that I chucked (they were bolted in) & a tranny that kicks out shifts at 6200 when left in drive & you just use the kick down from a roll.
I took it on the highway a few times & she does haul ass but it's more power than this old man will ever use!
b-body-bob
Well-known member
Yep. Ricky racer stuff on the street but it can tear things up if the mount breaks and the engine torques up into the rad, shroud, etc. The left one is the biggest problem since that side is in tension. I've never had a problem with a solid mount on the left and the rubber on the right (in compression).
BTW I realized that before I can even start trying to raise the transmission and the back of the motor up, I have to pull the heater to get the blower motor out of the way. Right now I'm not even sure I can get the valve cover off because it's in the way.
69.5CUDA
Blah Blah Blah
mmmmmm vintage cal custom covers...god i love those
by the looks of things, youve got an engine sitting 2-3 inches up in the nose (VC front corner)from where it should be..possibly more...its possible the tail is down as well but any tail raising wont lower the front much....can the ears be cut and dropped any?
hell ive ripped dozens of drivers side mounts, the fix is to just get some small chain wrap the whole mount and bolt the chain together, if you can get the chain "snug" around the whole thing youll never blow another mount and have all the benifits of a rubber mount.... initialy id been told to try bolting off an ear with chain and then bolting that to the k member, i wouldnt advise it as a buddy did it in his dart and broke the ear when the mount let go....the wrap on the other hand isnt prone to any failure if you go thru the steel U of the engine mount and then thru/around the k member and back to itself
by the looks of things, youve got an engine sitting 2-3 inches up in the nose (VC front corner)from where it should be..possibly more...its possible the tail is down as well but any tail raising wont lower the front much....can the ears be cut and dropped any?
hell ive ripped dozens of drivers side mounts, the fix is to just get some small chain wrap the whole mount and bolt the chain together, if you can get the chain "snug" around the whole thing youll never blow another mount and have all the benifits of a rubber mount.... initialy id been told to try bolting off an ear with chain and then bolting that to the k member, i wouldnt advise it as a buddy did it in his dart and broke the ear when the mount let go....the wrap on the other hand isnt prone to any failure if you go thru the steel U of the engine mount and then thru/around the k member and back to itself
b-body-bob
Well-known member
The ears could be cut and lowered by someone else, sure. 
That's the path that leads to madness - still too long, try again, still too long, try again, now too short, set car on fire.
Also carving on them affects the whole thing since it runs at an angle. So there's >1 way to screw it up.
That's the path that leads to madness - still too long, try again, still too long, try again, now too short, set car on fire.
Also carving on them affects the whole thing since it runs at an angle. So there's >1 way to screw it up.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
FWIW I stuck a short level on the valve cover, laying on the upper edge and the first rib so it was flat. There's only about 1/4 drop to the rear at the center of the valve cover. I don't know what that means at the end of the tailshaft, and I'm not pulling out a trig book (or more likely doing it visually with a drawing or CAD program) to figure it out. I'll just wait until I have enough reasons to raise it up again and just measure the angles.
The engine is way high in the bay though, but there's no more room between the pan and the k-frame than on any other car. To lower the engine in the chassis I guess I'd need a (totally) tubular k-frame.
The engine is way high in the bay though, but there's no more room between the pan and the k-frame than on any other car. To lower the engine in the chassis I guess I'd need a (totally) tubular k-frame.
69.5CUDA
Blah Blah Blah
did you check the level of the car(on door sill) to compare?
im looking at the 3 lines i know, VC, carb base, and the far side engine bay fender edge, and it looks down in the back a little based off the MC, but it looks way up..up front and possibly even forward
if its not being fussy in the driveline then leave it till it becomes an issue, hell its possible the rear was angled to make up for it
im looking at the 3 lines i know, VC, carb base, and the far side engine bay fender edge, and it looks down in the back a little based off the MC, but it looks way up..up front and possibly even forward
if its not being fussy in the driveline then leave it till it becomes an issue, hell its possible the rear was angled to make up for it
b-body-bob
Well-known member
There is no way it could be forward because the transmission mounts. I did not think to put the level on the sill plate but I'm not going to do anything about it anyway, at least not until I find a driveshaft angle that won't live. And there might not be anything I can do short of cutting off perches and welding them to match the screwed up engine position. I'm not going to do that because then you have to fix it again when/if the engine is changed.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
That, or a hell-bent need to keep a big-block in it, would be the only reasons I'd mess with modifying the elephant ears. Even at that, if I had a burning desire for the B-engine, I'd re-engineer the K-member to accept factory mounts rather than make the ears better--because they'll always be lousy.
Since we don't know about the former, it still might be necessary... but we're damned sure the latter isn't the case here.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
OK so the 925B spring kit says to replace the heavier spring - that means the one that does not have the big loose loop in it right?
Not really looking forward to it but I have to pull the tank sending unit out. First, the gauge doesn't work so I want to figure out where the problem is, and second, I screwed up installing it so it has a little leak once the fuel level is above the bottom of the sending unit.
Not really looking forward to it but I have to pull the tank sending unit out. First, the gauge doesn't work so I want to figure out where the problem is, and second, I screwed up installing it so it has a little leak once the fuel level is above the bottom of the sending unit.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
I tried to solder a wire to it, but it wouldn't heat up so I clamped a wire to the nipple and grounded it to the body. It's grounded I've checked.
69.5CUDA
Blah Blah Blah
try grounding the signal wire of the tank sender, if the guage in the cluster moves then the guage and wireing are good, if it doesnt then the issue is BEFORE the sender , i actualy used to use a slot car controler to test the wiring and guages, since the sender is basicly a slot car controler withthe float arm hanging off the trigger
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
The heavier spring is the one made of thicker wire, period. Loop size is not involved. As I recall, the heavier spring in the distributor on the W2 engine had the large loop.
The Valiant's sender ground is literally a fuse tap held onto the pickup's outlet pipe by a power-steering return hose clamp. Cheesy as hell, yet the gauge works perfectly.
First and foremost, double-check your ground connection. You say it's good and I believe you. Check it anyway. Now check your connections at the bulkhead disconnect. If nothing looks burned or melted, simply push on all the wires to ensure they're fully seated in the insulator. Do this from both sides of the firewall. Check gauge operation before proceeding. No change? Proceed.
As usual, I'm making this as detailed as possible for lurkers/future readers who might find this while having the same issue. That doesn't give you permission to skip anything unless indicated in the text. Read everything anyhow; don't skip around or try to skim this. It's a process. Do you want it to work or not? Despite having auxiliaries, all my factory gauges work too along with the oil light (using a 20PSI switch). I've been down this road.
Step 1: Does your temperature gauge work? I don't care that it's not the issue, you need to know for sure. If it works properly, move on to Step 2. If it's connected and doesn't seem to function, skip directly to Step 5. If it's not connected, ground its wire (should be violet on your car) direct to battery (-) to see if it works. The gauge should slowly swing well into overheat range, very close to the "H" hashmark. This will not happen instantaneously; give the gauge and limiter some time to reach operating temperature (yes, that's a thing--they're thermal gauges). Gauge pegged as expected? Proceed to the next step. No gauge movement? Skip directly to Step 5.
Step 2: Check the sender: With the key off, connect your DMM between the tank ground and the sender's output stud. It should read between 8.6-85Ω depending on how much fuel is in the tank. More fuel = lower reading. This test requires a DMM; at 50Ω+ on a 12V circuit a test lamp might not even light. If it tests open or outside that range, the sender's faulty. If the reading seems plausible, we've now eliminated that as a potential problem.
Step 3: Since know it's grounded, the next check is pretty simple: Connect the tank ground and sender output stud with a jumper wire. Turn the key to the RUN position. The gauge should peg at or beyond the "F" mark, with the needle no less than 1/32" below the "F" hashmark. The nature of the thermal gauges means you'll get a slow needle swing up to "F", not a lovely snap right to it. Give it time. If the gauge doesn't peg, proceed. If it does, there is absolutely no reason the fuel gauge shouldn't work. Triple-check your ground.
Step 4: Check continuity between the sender wire and the rear body wiring disconnect (on my Valiant, this is in the driver's-side kick panel area, likely the same on your car). You're looking for the dark blue wire on Cavity 2. Check continuity on the dash side of the connector to ensure the connection is good between the sender and the dash wiring. Verifying continuity betwixt this connection and the gauge can be done by jumping this terminal to ground, which should peg the gauge. No? Either the wire is cut/broken between here and the cluster (not likely) or we're into the cluster itself.
Step 5: Now we'll check the cluster limiter. Connect the negative lead of your DMM or test light to battery (-), and the positive lead to the factory temperature sender wire (violet) with it disconnected from the sender itself. Turn the key to the RUN position. Once again accounting for warm-up, the DMM should show a pulsing ("throbbing" if you're @Jester) 12V on the sender wire as the cluster limiter cycles. Using a test light, a good circuit will cause the light to flash slowly. If you have pulsing voltage/flashing, the limiter is good. If there's nothing (again, give it a mnute), you're open somewhere in the limiter circuit or cluster itself. If you have a constant solid battery voltage or constant illumination of the test light, the limiter's stuck. I doubt the latter is the problem; stuck limiters usually result in pegged temp and fuel readings.
If, at this point, everything checks out as it should (limiter indicates good, tank sender checks out, gauge pegs when shorted), you've either got a bad gauge or a burned trace on the cluster PCB.
We've avoided disassembling shit as long as we can. Disconnect the battery because it's time to pull the cluster for testing. This requires lowering the column, so loosen (but don't fully remove) the two bolts on the column anchor plate and remove the nuts holding the column to the dash to lower the column. That should get you enough clearance for the cluster to come out, if only barely. Don't bother leaving anything connected such as the ammeter wires; it's much easier to do your testing with the cluster fully out.
Step 6: Cluster diagnostics
a) The first order of business is to look for any burned traces on the PCB. These are usually painfully obvious, but using the DMM to check continuity between each pin on the connector and its termination point is a good idea; they do develop hard-to-see cracks. Any burns or breaks can be repaired with a jumper wire carefully soldered at the base of the pin and the trace's termination, or by replacing the PCB. I chose the former; $150 is ludicrous. Any component (gauge, bulb, etc.) at the end of a burned trace is almost certainly fried.
b) With the limiter removed, connect a new AA/C/D battery (anything 1.5V--do NOT use a 9V battery; you'll burn the gauge) across the studs of the fuel gauge. The (-) side of the battery connects to the stud marked "S". The needle should swing (very slowly, remember?) to about 1/4-1/3 tank. We're not too concerned with calibration so much as movement. If the needle doesn't move, the gauge is dead. Check your temp gauge while you're there, or be like me and do a bunch of redundant work later after not bothering to test it. While it doesn't apply here, the same test works for oil-pressure gauges. All three should read approximately 1/4-1/3 scale on a 1.5V battery. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO TEST THE AMMETER in this manner. At best, you'll burn your fingers; at worst the battery will explode. Leave the ammeter alone. If it's exhibited problems in the cluster, replace it.
c) If there are no burned/broken traces and the gauges check out, make sure all the connections are clean and the nuts are tight--don't go crazy here, they gauges are fragile. You can test the limiter if you'd like (see below) but I'd suggest replacing it with a solid-state unit such as those sold by RT Engineering. The two styles they make cover most muscle-era Mopars; the non-Rallye '67-'76 A-body cluster uses their part number IVR-4. I put one in the Valiant and I have one for the Challenger. It's cheap insurance ($50). You can also make your own using a 7805 linear regulator and some other components, but those run very hot (never good) and do not provide any short/open-circuit protection for your increasingly-expensive gauges.
e) When you reconnect the cluster, make sure all the terminals in the insulator are fully inserted and seated on their respecitve pins. Check continuity between the connector wires and their termination points on the PCB.
7) Reinstall gauge cluster & steering column. Reconnect power. Start engine, and witness the power of your fully-armed and operational battl... er, instrument cluster. Feels pretty good, huh?
If, after all this, you can't get a working gauge you'll need to confer with a demonologist or Catholic bishop well-versed in exorcisms, because your car is clearly posessed. Of course, that's not the case because you found the problem somewhere during this procedure. If you didn't, you fiddle-fucked around, skipped step(s), or whatever and somehow missed the problem.
The Valiant's sender ground is literally a fuse tap held onto the pickup's outlet pipe by a power-steering return hose clamp. Cheesy as hell, yet the gauge works perfectly.
First and foremost, double-check your ground connection. You say it's good and I believe you. Check it anyway. Now check your connections at the bulkhead disconnect. If nothing looks burned or melted, simply push on all the wires to ensure they're fully seated in the insulator. Do this from both sides of the firewall. Check gauge operation before proceeding. No change? Proceed.
As usual, I'm making this as detailed as possible for lurkers/future readers who might find this while having the same issue. That doesn't give you permission to skip anything unless indicated in the text. Read everything anyhow; don't skip around or try to skim this. It's a process. Do you want it to work or not? Despite having auxiliaries, all my factory gauges work too along with the oil light (using a 20PSI switch). I've been down this road.
Step 1: Does your temperature gauge work? I don't care that it's not the issue, you need to know for sure. If it works properly, move on to Step 2. If it's connected and doesn't seem to function, skip directly to Step 5. If it's not connected, ground its wire (should be violet on your car) direct to battery (-) to see if it works. The gauge should slowly swing well into overheat range, very close to the "H" hashmark. This will not happen instantaneously; give the gauge and limiter some time to reach operating temperature (yes, that's a thing--they're thermal gauges). Gauge pegged as expected? Proceed to the next step. No gauge movement? Skip directly to Step 5.
Step 2: Check the sender: With the key off, connect your DMM between the tank ground and the sender's output stud. It should read between 8.6-85Ω depending on how much fuel is in the tank. More fuel = lower reading. This test requires a DMM; at 50Ω+ on a 12V circuit a test lamp might not even light. If it tests open or outside that range, the sender's faulty. If the reading seems plausible, we've now eliminated that as a potential problem.
Step 3: Since know it's grounded, the next check is pretty simple: Connect the tank ground and sender output stud with a jumper wire. Turn the key to the RUN position. The gauge should peg at or beyond the "F" mark, with the needle no less than 1/32" below the "F" hashmark. The nature of the thermal gauges means you'll get a slow needle swing up to "F", not a lovely snap right to it. Give it time. If the gauge doesn't peg, proceed. If it does, there is absolutely no reason the fuel gauge shouldn't work. Triple-check your ground.
Step 4: Check continuity between the sender wire and the rear body wiring disconnect (on my Valiant, this is in the driver's-side kick panel area, likely the same on your car). You're looking for the dark blue wire on Cavity 2. Check continuity on the dash side of the connector to ensure the connection is good between the sender and the dash wiring. Verifying continuity betwixt this connection and the gauge can be done by jumping this terminal to ground, which should peg the gauge. No? Either the wire is cut/broken between here and the cluster (not likely) or we're into the cluster itself.
Step 5: Now we'll check the cluster limiter. Connect the negative lead of your DMM or test light to battery (-), and the positive lead to the factory temperature sender wire (violet) with it disconnected from the sender itself. Turn the key to the RUN position. Once again accounting for warm-up, the DMM should show a pulsing ("throbbing" if you're @Jester) 12V on the sender wire as the cluster limiter cycles. Using a test light, a good circuit will cause the light to flash slowly. If you have pulsing voltage/flashing, the limiter is good. If there's nothing (again, give it a mnute), you're open somewhere in the limiter circuit or cluster itself. If you have a constant solid battery voltage or constant illumination of the test light, the limiter's stuck. I doubt the latter is the problem; stuck limiters usually result in pegged temp and fuel readings.
If, at this point, everything checks out as it should (limiter indicates good, tank sender checks out, gauge pegs when shorted), you've either got a bad gauge or a burned trace on the cluster PCB.
We've avoided disassembling shit as long as we can. Disconnect the battery because it's time to pull the cluster for testing. This requires lowering the column, so loosen (but don't fully remove) the two bolts on the column anchor plate and remove the nuts holding the column to the dash to lower the column. That should get you enough clearance for the cluster to come out, if only barely. Don't bother leaving anything connected such as the ammeter wires; it's much easier to do your testing with the cluster fully out.
Step 6: Cluster diagnostics
a) The first order of business is to look for any burned traces on the PCB. These are usually painfully obvious, but using the DMM to check continuity between each pin on the connector and its termination point is a good idea; they do develop hard-to-see cracks. Any burns or breaks can be repaired with a jumper wire carefully soldered at the base of the pin and the trace's termination, or by replacing the PCB. I chose the former; $150 is ludicrous. Any component (gauge, bulb, etc.) at the end of a burned trace is almost certainly fried.
b) With the limiter removed, connect a new AA/C/D battery (anything 1.5V--do NOT use a 9V battery; you'll burn the gauge) across the studs of the fuel gauge. The (-) side of the battery connects to the stud marked "S". The needle should swing (very slowly, remember?) to about 1/4-1/3 tank. We're not too concerned with calibration so much as movement. If the needle doesn't move, the gauge is dead. Check your temp gauge while you're there, or be like me and do a bunch of redundant work later after not bothering to test it. While it doesn't apply here, the same test works for oil-pressure gauges. All three should read approximately 1/4-1/3 scale on a 1.5V battery. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO TEST THE AMMETER in this manner. At best, you'll burn your fingers; at worst the battery will explode. Leave the ammeter alone. If it's exhibited problems in the cluster, replace it.
c) If there are no burned/broken traces and the gauges check out, make sure all the connections are clean and the nuts are tight--don't go crazy here, they gauges are fragile. You can test the limiter if you'd like (see below) but I'd suggest replacing it with a solid-state unit such as those sold by RT Engineering. The two styles they make cover most muscle-era Mopars; the non-Rallye '67-'76 A-body cluster uses their part number IVR-4. I put one in the Valiant and I have one for the Challenger. It's cheap insurance ($50). You can also make your own using a 7805 linear regulator and some other components, but those run very hot (never good) and do not provide any short/open-circuit protection for your increasingly-expensive gauges.
- c1) To test this style of limiter, connect the case's ground terminal to the negative side (-) of a 12V source. Connect the insulated terminal (in PCB material) closest to the ground to the positive side (+) of the same source. Now connect one side of a 12V light bulb to the ground terminal and the other side to the terminal furthest from the ground. The light bulb should flash on and off as the limiter cycles. No or constant light means the limiter's junk.
e) When you reconnect the cluster, make sure all the terminals in the insulator are fully inserted and seated on their respecitve pins. Check continuity between the connector wires and their termination points on the PCB.
7) Reinstall gauge cluster & steering column. Reconnect power. Start engine, and witness the power of your fully-armed and operational battl... er, instrument cluster. Feels pretty good, huh?
If, after all this, you can't get a working gauge you'll need to confer with a demonologist or Catholic bishop well-versed in exorcisms, because your car is clearly posessed. Of course, that's not the case because you found the problem somewhere during this procedure. If you didn't, you fiddle-fucked around, skipped step(s), or whatever and somehow missed the problem.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
Dang son, that's a lot of typing. I'm printing it out to take to the garage with me to add to my printed knowledge base out there.
BTW I found the other B-body fender strut and it fits the A-body. Don't let anybody tell you otherwise. This one came right off the bumper bracket so I am certain it's a b-body part.
I've got a torn up speedo cable at the interior end. The clip is broken and it's held together with electrical tape. It was unplugged and that's why the speedo doesn't work. I had to take the seat back out to get my big ass in there to where I could get to it. I've also got to get a white speedo gear for 28" tires and 3.91s but am holding off to see if I need to buy anything to fix the fuel gauge.
Yes, everything else in the dash seems to work. It seems like there's a shit ton of unplugged connectors under there, for god knows what. Radio, etc. The wiring diagram I've got is minimal at best, for example I've got two female connectors on blue wires taped together, but don't see anything about that. I looked for optional wiring (mymopar.com) but found notne. But it was free and I've already got my money's worth out of it.
BTW I found the other B-body fender strut and it fits the A-body. Don't let anybody tell you otherwise. This one came right off the bumper bracket so I am certain it's a b-body part.
I've got a torn up speedo cable at the interior end. The clip is broken and it's held together with electrical tape. It was unplugged and that's why the speedo doesn't work. I had to take the seat back out to get my big ass in there to where I could get to it. I've also got to get a white speedo gear for 28" tires and 3.91s but am holding off to see if I need to buy anything to fix the fuel gauge.
Yes, everything else in the dash seems to work. It seems like there's a shit ton of unplugged connectors under there, for god knows what. Radio, etc. The wiring diagram I've got is minimal at best, for example I've got two female connectors on blue wires taped together, but don't see anything about that. I looked for optional wiring (mymopar.com) but found notne. But it was free and I've already got my money's worth out of it.