thrashingcows
Drowning deep in my sea of loathing...so I'm
I never realized they were doing this kind of manipulation of wire gauge. From now on I won't buy any wire, connectors, plugs, etc that I can't inspect first.
84 Crewcab...AKA..Patches
- Thread starter thrashingcows
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thrashingcows
Drowning deep in my sea of loathing...so I'm
Yup I generally do the same thing. I have box's of OEM wiring harnesses....I get most of my connections, and wiring from these as well.
69.5CUDA
Blah Blah Blah
yeah its the sole reason i save harnesses....and the reason i got good at wraping wiring with electrical tape so well that it looks like a factory wrap when im done...but its hard on the hands..i tend to get a few cramps in fingers and thumb while doing them...but its worth it
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
Chances are the wiring would've been fine, really. A lot of the wiring on these cars is not what an engineer would specify but can carry far more amps than one would think and do it safely. If the wire on the left is a 10 gauge, then the one on the right appears to be 14, and if it's a 12 then I'd say the one on the right is 16. There's no such thing as 10/12 gauge, it's one or the other and the difference is significant. As an example, though, my power-hog room air conditioner in the garage has 14 gauge wiring (the original cord), and methinks that draws a tad more amperage than a pair of high-beams, at 110V to boot.
As far as the DRLs, the reason you were getting the buzzing was because of how they're run. DRLs don't run at full brightness and the way the engineers did that was to lower the voltage. Since the H4 system is designed to operate at 12V-15V, the relays probably didn't have volts enough to keep the coils engaged, causing them to flutter at high speed, which makes them buzz like that (the headlamp-door relay in the Black Bitch did the exact-same thing when the contact points in the motor were burnt). The headlamps were dimmer than normal because they were being pulse-width modulated by the fluttering relays. Suffice to say, the failure of the DRLs to function correctly was in no way a reflection on the kit itself. Blame idiotic laws and the half-assed engineering used to comply with them. :doh:
I wish you'd have asked about this prior to buying the kit. You may still be able to make the bits work, assuming it has the right parts...
So, how could you make this work? Pretty simple, really. You must use 5-pin relays and sockets, just wired a little differently. Using the standard markings on automotive Bosch-style relays, you'll want your original headlamp low-beam 12V+ run to pin 87a, which should be the center pin. Your output + wire to the headlamp bulbs should be on the pin marked "30". Pin 87 should run to 12V+ BAT (constant) or 12V+ IGN ON, (if you don't want them to work with the key off). Pins 85 and 86 are your pull-in (trigger) coil, so they can be reversed, but one should go to ground (and probably already does) and the other, which would be your H4 trigger, should be routed off the positive wire for your park or side-marker lamps rather than the original low-beam positive. With the headlamps off, your original low-voltage signal now comes through the relay at rest, so your DRLs work as designed. When you switch on the headlamps, the park lamps illuminate and will send a full 12V signal to the relay, which will then engage full battery voltage to the low beams. That's the easy way, and the easy way always has a drawback. In this case you won't have just a park-lamp only setting on your headlamp switch anymore. If that's a problem, simply run your trigger wire(s) to the headlamp output wire on your headlamp switch. I'm pretty sure you didn't jump this massive project without a service manual, so it should be pretty easy to determine where to tap with the factory diagram. In fact, the headlamp-switch pinout should be the same from about 1965 through 1993, if not even later.
Quick recap:
30 = Headlamp low-beam positive wire to bulb (relay output)
87 = 12V+, either battery or ignition on (your preference)
87a = Original low-beam positive wire from truck wiring (relay input)
85/86 = One to ground, the other to one to park-lamp + wire or headlamp + at switch (this is simply an electromagnet, so polarity doesn't matter)
It must be wired exactly as described or it will not work correctly. Follow to the letter, and you've got both wicked beams and legal compliance with no silly buzzing noises or strange illumination. :dance:
Now tell me you love me.
As far as the DRLs, the reason you were getting the buzzing was because of how they're run. DRLs don't run at full brightness and the way the engineers did that was to lower the voltage. Since the H4 system is designed to operate at 12V-15V, the relays probably didn't have volts enough to keep the coils engaged, causing them to flutter at high speed, which makes them buzz like that (the headlamp-door relay in the Black Bitch did the exact-same thing when the contact points in the motor were burnt). The headlamps were dimmer than normal because they were being pulse-width modulated by the fluttering relays. Suffice to say, the failure of the DRLs to function correctly was in no way a reflection on the kit itself. Blame idiotic laws and the half-assed engineering used to comply with them. :doh:
I wish you'd have asked about this prior to buying the kit. You may still be able to make the bits work, assuming it has the right parts...
So, how could you make this work? Pretty simple, really. You must use 5-pin relays and sockets, just wired a little differently. Using the standard markings on automotive Bosch-style relays, you'll want your original headlamp low-beam 12V+ run to pin 87a, which should be the center pin. Your output + wire to the headlamp bulbs should be on the pin marked "30". Pin 87 should run to 12V+ BAT (constant) or 12V+ IGN ON, (if you don't want them to work with the key off). Pins 85 and 86 are your pull-in (trigger) coil, so they can be reversed, but one should go to ground (and probably already does) and the other, which would be your H4 trigger, should be routed off the positive wire for your park or side-marker lamps rather than the original low-beam positive. With the headlamps off, your original low-voltage signal now comes through the relay at rest, so your DRLs work as designed. When you switch on the headlamps, the park lamps illuminate and will send a full 12V signal to the relay, which will then engage full battery voltage to the low beams. That's the easy way, and the easy way always has a drawback. In this case you won't have just a park-lamp only setting on your headlamp switch anymore. If that's a problem, simply run your trigger wire(s) to the headlamp output wire on your headlamp switch. I'm pretty sure you didn't jump this massive project without a service manual, so it should be pretty easy to determine where to tap with the factory diagram. In fact, the headlamp-switch pinout should be the same from about 1965 through 1993, if not even later.
Quick recap:
30 = Headlamp low-beam positive wire to bulb (relay output)
87 = 12V+, either battery or ignition on (your preference)
87a = Original low-beam positive wire from truck wiring (relay input)
85/86 = One to ground, the other to one to park-lamp + wire or headlamp + at switch (this is simply an electromagnet, so polarity doesn't matter)
It must be wired exactly as described or it will not work correctly. Follow to the letter, and you've got both wicked beams and legal compliance with no silly buzzing noises or strange illumination. :dance:
Now tell me you love me.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
By the way, if you still have problems with the circuit the way I describe it, it's very possible the H4s are just too much draw for the DRL converter. If that's the case, things start to get a little wacky electronically speaking but I don't think it will be a concern because the DRL module should limit the output regardless of the draw.
thrashingcows
Drowning deep in my sea of loathing...so I'm
Doc...the reason I designated the wire on the left as 10/12ga was because I was not sure which one it was. I know it's one or the other...just grabbed a small piece I had lying around for comparison. 
Thanks for the advice on wiring up relays for the headlights....I will try and draw it out so my brain can wrap around the ideas, and concepts.
Thanks for the advice on wiring up relays for the headlights....I will try and draw it out so my brain can wrap around the ideas, and concepts.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
Very-quick PhotoShop job on an existing diagram:
Pin 87a is normally closed, meaning it'll pass the DRL voltage through when the relay is at rest... no different than the old system. When the relay is activated, that circuit goes open (breaks) and the voltage now passes from pin 87 to pin 30. Make sense now?
It's kind of bass-ackward because most people think of 30 as the "power in" terminal, with 87 and 87a being used for the load(s). We're just wiring it the other way, and the relay doesn't give a maple-flavored poop stick one way or the other.
Pin 87a is normally closed, meaning it'll pass the DRL voltage through when the relay is at rest... no different than the old system. When the relay is activated, that circuit goes open (breaks) and the voltage now passes from pin 87 to pin 30. Make sense now?
It's kind of bass-ackward because most people think of 30 as the "power in" terminal, with 87 and 87a being used for the load(s). We're just wiring it the other way, and the relay doesn't give a maple-flavored poop stick one way or the other.
thrashingcows
Drowning deep in my sea of loathing...so I'm
Weathers been rainy and cooling down here the last week or so. So I figured it was time to install my heater hoses again. But this time I had my new manual shut off valves, and a new vacuum coolant shut off valve as well.
I searched high and low for the "right" manual shut off valves I wanted to use. Many hours were spent searching all over the internet until I happened across these babies!
4 Seasons 84706. Used on early 70's dodge pick up trucks.
And the vacuum operated shut off valve was not available for our trucks...at least with a 5/8 x 5/8 hose connections. Maybe I just couldn't find it, but I searched high and low and never could find a direct OEM style replacement.
I found many that would "work" but looked hideous, IMO, but eventually found one I liked.
4 Seasons 74859. Used mainly on Ford Rangers from 2003 to 2008.
Now here it is all installed...
Now next summer I can just turn off the valves and no heat, or coolant will enter the heater core to affect my AC temps.
I searched high and low for the "right" manual shut off valves I wanted to use. Many hours were spent searching all over the internet until I happened across these babies!
4 Seasons 84706. Used on early 70's dodge pick up trucks.
And the vacuum operated shut off valve was not available for our trucks...at least with a 5/8 x 5/8 hose connections. Maybe I just couldn't find it, but I searched high and low and never could find a direct OEM style replacement.
I found many that would "work" but looked hideous, IMO, but eventually found one I liked.
4 Seasons 74859. Used mainly on Ford Rangers from 2003 to 2008.
Now here it is all installed...
Now next summer I can just turn off the valves and no heat, or coolant will enter the heater core to affect my AC temps.
thrashingcows
Drowning deep in my sea of loathing...so I'm
Changed out the two air temp sensor in the intake. The one for the grid heaters, the small more forward one, can be had through the aftermarket. BWD WT3032 will get you the right one.
The other one, it controls the on/off for the KSB. I could not find an aftermarket replacement. So I had to find a NOS one. The OEM number on this one is...3921642
Here they are installed....
The other one, it controls the on/off for the KSB. I could not find an aftermarket replacement. So I had to find a NOS one. The OEM number on this one is...3921642
Here they are installed....
thrashingcows
Drowning deep in my sea of loathing...so I'm
Uh... I hate to point out the obvious here, but couldn't that have been accomplished with just one manual shutoff? [smilie=g:[/QUOTE]
There is two lines running into the heater core. Even when the vacuum shut off valve is working properly it still allows a ton of parasitic heat to flow back into the heater core through the outflow line. Thus the reason for "two" shut off valves.
Do you think that the Bypass is that important?
68R/T
I got drunk and swallowed my teeth, now
I would think that a bypass would somewhat defeat the purpose of engine cooling by re-introducing hot coolant back into the engine. A certain percentage of the coolant never would pass thru the radiator. :hmmm:
thrashingcows
Drowning deep in my sea of loathing...so I'm
Only benefit I can think of to have a bypass is to keep the coolant lines from corroding, or filling up with silt and junk.
69.5CUDA
Blah Blah Blah
the bypass helps cool on the 4's and the mopar v8s..so i dont see why it wouldnt help on the cummins ...the bonus is the minivan unit isnt ugly, fairly compact, vac controled, and does the job of 2 valves by cutting the flow off entirely.....all the k cars ran that setup..fact is..after the 80s i think all newwer stuff runs a similar setup of one kind or another
thrashingcows
Drowning deep in my sea of loathing...so I'm
Been thinking about this a bit. Think what 'll do is get myself an infrared thermometer and monitor the temps on the head. Do a test while the coolant is flowing through the heater core, and then again while the manual shut off valves are stopping the flow. Be interesting to see if there is indeed an effect on coolant, and there fore engine temps with these valve open and closed.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
Plumb the HVAC system, along with the rest of the engine's cooling system, exactly how the factory did it. One can talk about penny-pinching this and production that, but the sonofabitch had to live through a warranty and those engines are million-mile units.
I don't think you meant "parasitic" heat so much as you meant "convection", but even then I've not experienced once it in the dozens of Dodge trucks in which I've spent time, built as early as '67. Many of those rides were in Atlanta in big-block-powered trucks without AC; I'd have noticed it and the owners would've found it unbearable. I think your problem lies more in the blend-air circuit rather than engine heat convecting through a single, small coolant hose entering the engine bay.
As 69.5 said, the reason it's designed to circulate is to aid in cooling. No matter how hot the returning coolant is at the point of re-entry into the engine, it's cooler than it was when it left simply through the heat radiation of the heater hoses.
I don't think you meant "parasitic" heat so much as you meant "convection", but even then I've not experienced once it in the dozens of Dodge trucks in which I've spent time, built as early as '67. Many of those rides were in Atlanta in big-block-powered trucks without AC; I'd have noticed it and the owners would've found it unbearable. I think your problem lies more in the blend-air circuit rather than engine heat convecting through a single, small coolant hose entering the engine bay.
As 69.5 said, the reason it's designed to circulate is to aid in cooling. No matter how hot the returning coolant is at the point of re-entry into the engine, it's cooler than it was when it left simply through the heat radiation of the heater hoses.
thrashingcows
Drowning deep in my sea of loathing...so I'm
Thank you for straightening me out on the proper word there Doc...Yes convection is the term I should have used.
Doc, Do you think there would be a discernible detriment to the cooling system, or the motor if I use these manual shut off valves?
Doc, Do you think there would be a discernible detriment to the cooling system, or the motor if I use these manual shut off valves?