Rusty's not very quiet cuda progress

Might be picking your brain again doc!
2 calls from the mechanic already & we are not past the carb tuning.
Good news is he's reading around 14 on the Vac, problem is she's running Rich & still not getting much response from the adjusters.

He said the choke was set way off for a new carb & it had 2 springs on one of the adjuster screws, he managed to separate those, he's starting to think I may have gotten a return that was stuck back on the shelf, gotta dig out the receipt just in case.

His next move is to pull the top off the carb & check a few things in there.
He read how I left the timing to be about 13BTDC & has not played with that yet!
 
K, another question comes up, I was told by Jerry Stein that the manifold he sold me was off a 71 340 engine & it would fit.
It seemed to when I put it on, was no problem there, the question is whether all the ports line up to the 360 engine or could that be giving me a problem?
Oh yea, idle is up over 850 will not run well at the 850, he set the high idle at 1500 for now.
 
K he got pulled off my car & it looks like nothing much will get done till next week.
In the meantime he did some research, manifold is good to go, & at summit they said go to 17BTDC on the timing & work back till the vacuum drops 1 inch if it doesn't ping your good! about the same as you guys said.
Now I gapped the plugs at 35 he pulled one & his gauge read 40, but it's definitely a bit Rich. 20240925_142728.jpg
I think he's going to do the timing first, clean & regap the plugs & see if that helps before he tears the BRAN NEW CARB apart to see if there's any damage at the adjustment screw ports???
 
If the carb hasn't done much more than idling in a repair bay you can't trust what the plugs look like.

I wouldn't be surprised if you got a return. Happened to me once on a carb from Jeg's. I don't remember details but I opened it up for one reason or another and could tell someone had been in there before me.
 
Plug readings on an engine that hasn't been driven are essentially useless, especially when most of its run time has been at idle with the choke engaged. They'll always look like that. There's no use in reading the plugs until after it's been driven. I'm not sure which plugs you're using, but they should be Champion. The original plug was an N9Y (now known as an RN9YC, Champion stock number 415), which is a pretty cold plug. The current recommendation--no doubt EPA-inspired--is an RN14YC (stock #405), which is five heat ranges hotter. That hotter than I'd like for driving. However that is the plug I'd suggest using until the choke and mixture is sorted. Once it's running like a champ, change out to RN12YC (a.k.a. stock #404). Both the RN12YC and the RN14YC are pre-gapped by Champion at .035".

No, changing from an RN14YC to the RN12YC will not require re-tuning. Heat range has nothing to do with spark intensity, duration, etc. It's simply a measure of how quickly the tip of the plug cools off. A hotter plug is less likely to collect deposits, while a colder plug is more-easily fouled. However, a colder plug is also less likely to detonate, and since this will be primarily a hot-weather car, I'd suggest the 12 over the 14 for summer cruising.

Just as a reminder, and I'm always astounded by the number of people that don't know this: The idle mixture screws will have little to no effect until the engine is at operating temperature--180° or above--and the choke is fully off. The fuel demands of a cold or cool engine are dramatically different than those of an engine at operating temperature. If one gets an engine tuned in nicely and it's only at 140°, it's going to be a lean-running, missing, spark-knocking misery at 180°. Furthermore, with the choke even partially engaged, that added vacuum will pull fuel out of every available metering orifice, not just the idle feeds.

The choke needs to be the first thing that's adjusted correctly. If that's off it'll throw everything else out of whack, including the idle speed.

I thought you'd had all the choke and idle-speed stuff handled already.

go to 17BTDC on the timing & work back till the vacuum drops 1 inch if it doesn't ping your good!
I've never heard of starting at a number and working backward. Seriously. That's absolutely a bass-ackward way of doing it (and why I don't ask retailers for tech advice). What if it doesn't ping at 17°BTDC? What would the reasoning be for backing it off? I've daily-driven cars with as much as 26° initial and no spark knock, even on steamy summer days.

In general terms, I'll use a dial-back timing light to set the total advance (once I know all the mechanical is in, at say 3,000RPM) to 34° and let the initial fall where it may. If it detonates at light/partial load, I'll slow down the rate of vacuum advance by adjusting the screw inside the vacuum nipple until the ping stops.

The easiest way, though, is the Big Fat Friend method: Set your timing at, say, 12°BTDC. On a warm day, get the heaviest person you know to ride along (or get some weight in the car--300+lb is good), and find the steepest hill you can. From a dead stop at the bottom of said hill, accelerate at about 3/4 throttle up the hill. Do you hear spark knock?
If yes, back it off a degree and try again. Keep backing off a degree at a time until no ping is heard.
If no, advance it two degrees and try again. Keep advancing it until you hear a ping, back it off one degree, and retry. If it pings again, back it off another degree and call it a day.
Now that the engine's good and hot, shut it off and wait about 10 minutes. Try starting it again. Does it start OK? You're done. Does it turn over very slow and very hard, like the battery's weak? Take out another couple of degrees and try it again after another heat soak. Keep the timing where you've got the best balance between maximum timing and easy hot starts.

That's how I timed my 400 Trans Am and my 440 Charger. The T/A would not start above 70° outside temperature with 26° so I backed it off to 24. The Charger was at 16°. Never had a spark knock in the T/A, and only had it in the Charger on triple-digit Atlanta summer days--and it was very faint.

I think he's going to do the timing first, clean & regap the plugs & see if that helps before he tears the BRAN NEW CARB apart to see if there's any damage at the adjustment screw ports???
There's no damage to the mixture screws. At worst, someone over-tightened them and even if that's the case, they still deform in a taper that matches the screw. That'll affect the initial adjustment a bit--maybe 1 turn out as a starting point instead of 1-1/2--but they should still work.

Throw the fouled plugs out and get new ones. Cleaning spark plugs is a fool's errand; they never work as they should after they foul. I've wasted a lot of time in my life standing at a plug blaster only to have the plugs foul again after 5-10 minutes of use.
 
K, I think the plugs are champion, they were pregapped & I did double check them, not sure of the # I bought but I would have gone for stock ones. I don't know how the one he checked was 40?
I thought I did too, I may have raised the idle a bit when it sputtered on me, but choke was definatly fully open.
My guys pretty good, but he wants to get the carb ironed out before he does the easy stuff, align, grease, check a couple of torque specs I couldn't do under the car & aim headlights, grease rear & put in the additive.
I googled the rich problem & it seems to be common with these carbs, ideas there were lower float & throttle plate not seating or shaft leaking & they can't handle over 6PSI, which should not be a problem with a stock Mech. fuel pump.

I'll give him your Ideas & the on line ones & let him do his thing, he's been digging around also.
He was resetting the secondary air door when I popped in last time, seems nothing was set to what "stock NEW" should have been!
 
K, I survived the wedding day, besides the 5 k run in jersey city when we were trying to get to the hotel, ended up in a garage about 5 blocks away, did I mention I hate walking! anyway we got there on time they said we had to be there by 12:45, well we were & got lucky & were able to check in early, well for an extra 50 bucks that is, so we sat around, a little after one my son calls & says come to the best man's room, K we get there & sit around till 2, the photographer finally arrives to take pics of him getting ready, well what are we here for??
So we split up again & the next thing is 3:30, at least that we needed to be there for, family pics!
Next thing is a quick rehearsal at 4:30, so I grab one of my sons & we go IN THE RAIN to get my car & park across the street from the hotel, lug the bags up, try to dry up a bit & get there for the rehearsal.
Finally at 5 everything gets started & they finally tie the ole knot!
Could have left my house at 2 instead of 10:30 AM, missed the closed streets completely & not missed a thing! Oh well that's my life!
So we are pretty much directly across the river from the freedom tower, I never saw it in person, first day & night it was buried in fog, got lucky it stayed clear enough the next morning to see the whole thing, so being the X new yorker I acted like a tourist & took some pics! 20240929_081618.jpg
That was from ground level in front of the hotel, Had a closer & way higher view from the terrace but nothing came out through the wet glass, for those with an imagination here's the tower from there................ 20240929_091633.jpg

Nothing on the car, I hope he's not swamped again this week, it may be next spring before I drive it!
 
Well I finally stopped by the shop to see if anything good happened with the car, welllll NO to say the least, they were going to pull it out before removing the carb & it wouldn't start, narrowed it down to no spark, Now he's playing with the distributor, maybe a bad pickup, but noticed things were not turning on it correctly, cap actually moves a little & the inner rotation seemed off, so he's got a new pickup & whole distributor sitting there to see which way to go.
Now I bought the new one off ebay, but it was a while back, I'm really getting tired of brand new shit screwing up om me!
He's swamped again so god only know when he will get to the carb even?
 
Mine had this in it, I was trying to make everything as stock as possible, even paid a few bucks extra for the tan cap, you can't say I didn't try!!!
Even though that & the carb screwed me! 20231128_143035.jpg
I still have it!
 
The old Mallory stuff was pretty good, but the LED in the pickup is a common failure item. With Mallory being eaten by MSD a few years back, I wonder whether service parts are even available anymore.

Not that it really matters. That's a race distributor with no vacuum advance. At best it'd be painful to drive on a street car... horrible fuel economy, miserable part-throttle performance, etc.
 
Well He brought in both a new pick up coil & a new distributor, The boss put Steve on it, he's pushing 70 & knows his shit, I think I'll just leave it up to him on which way he goes, He's spent a lot of time researching the carb, double checking that the manifold should work (71 340 manifold) .
I'm hoping when He gets back to the carb he can just rebuild it so I don't have to deal with trying to return it to autozone!
I was supposed to ebay the mallory & try & get a few bucks back!
some day I'll get to it!
 
I get confused when I read someone working on an oldish car is doing research. Looking at the FSM, sure, but research? Maybe that's just what he (or you) called it and it's not anything really like research.

OTOH, stick a thermoquad in front of me and I'll pitch it in the trash and ask you if you want a Brawler or an Edelbrock instead. Maybe if I did some research I'd feel differently. :unsure:
 
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No He's actually digging around the interweb, He had a manual out too. when I mentioned it was a 71 manifold He also hunted around to make sure that was copasetic, where I have no Idea, but He took that off the possible problem list.
He also did a compression test, his #'s were quite a bit lower than I had gotten??????
But he didn't seem concerned about them.
Did I mention they finally fixed my battery drain down overnight problem on the 05 ram, it was the wiper motor.
 
He also did a compression test, his #'s were quite a bit lower than I had gotten??????
But he didn't seem concerned about them.
I would've expected yours to be lower than his if anything.

Did I mention they finally fixed my battery drain down overnight problem on the 05 ram, it was the wiper motor.
Good to hear. Those kind of problems can be hard to figure out. Plenty of unplugging and replugging.
 
I get confused when I read someone working on an oldish car is doing research. Looking at the FSM, sure, but research? Maybe that's just what he (or you) called it and it's not anything really like research.
I'm not sure what he's researching, but if he's not a Chrysler guy he might not realize that all LA intakes physically interchange. Seriously, I can't imagine a professional shop not having the car tuned and out in a few days. It's not voodoo.

OTOH, stick a thermoquad in front of me and I'll pitch it in the trash and ask you if you want a Brawler or an Edelbrock instead. Maybe if I did some research I'd feel differently. :unsure:
When I was a lad, I detested both the ThermoQuad and the Quadra-Jet. I've learned a lot since then. The ThermoQuad is an excellent carburetor. Unlike any other four-barrel, it was originally designed and sold purely as a racing carb. Once the OE boys got their mitts on it and cleaned up the drivability (and eliminated the solid-fuel arrangment of the race and '71 340 carbs), it became a fantastic street-strip carburetor. Starting with a factory-issued carb provides benefits the OE boys spent thousands of man-hours nailing--things like drivability and economy, which are the hard parts to tune. WOT is cake by comparison. The primary reason I haven't tried a TQ on Agnes is because I don't have a W2 intake that accepts one (to my knowledge, none exists). I can't use an adapter; the air cleaner already hits the hood with the Holley on it. I'm not aware of a Carter AVS large enough, or I'd consider one of those. In all honesty, I think that engine really requires two accelerator pumps, but I've no good way to verify that short of buying another Holley. Or, y'know, cutting the hood, which is not an option.
Almost any Holley built in the last 25 years needs serious reconfiguring to truly drive well. There's an incredible thread on YellowBullet about fixing the "improvements" that have hobbled aftermarket Holleys for decades. It's a long read, but really gives one a grasp of how they function. I've spent a lot of time drilling and threading my 830 for air bleeds, fuel restrictions and such to get it to drive well. No aftermarket Holley since before its time has had the benefit of OE tuning. I'm actually trying to duplicate the arrangement of the original GM-issue 3310 (3878261-EH) that made that particular carb # a legend, even though virtually all the "dash" (aftermarket) versions suck.
The only time I'd use an Edelbrock is if I were selling the car and I wanted to keep the carb I had on it. The Thunder Series is a significant improvement over their AFB clone, but is nowhere near the carb an actual Carter AVS is. Edelbrock's design is not a copy of the Carter AVS, they just slapped an AVS/ThermoQuad-style secondary air valve atop the existing AFB and eliminated the virtually-untuneable unit buried inside it. Kev found this out when he tried to use Thunder Series parts on his factory AVS. They fit, and they even sorta function, but they don't work.

Tip: If your Brawler (or any other Holley) runs eye-watering rich at cruise, changing jets will not affect it in any way. The jets don't come into play until you're well into the throttle. I learned that in the Yellowbullet thread.
 
Stopped by to check on the car, I was pleased to see the hood open, so it's getting some attention.
turns out the pick up coil in the new distributor was bad, new one going in (whole distributor, the chief didn't like the cap that was able to move) if it starts then the carb comes off, got the feeling I will have to return that.
Distributor was off ebay & quite a while ago, probably will have to eat that loss!
 
Major F-ing Rant time, Steve from Plaza called, new distributor in still no spark, do I have the old coil, luckily, I didn't try to sell it yet, bring that down, nadda, nothing, so he says he's gonna test the ballast, so I say I'll get the old one, calls again while I'm digging it out & says bring the ignition module too, so I bring 2 of those, the old voltage reg. & the ballast resistor.
Ballast checked out ok, so we stick in an old igi. control I got 20 years ago from the 340 Bros (thanks Don & Greg.)
We have iginition, so we are finally back to the carb!!!!!!
Control was another brand new part from auto zone!!!!!!!!!!
So he tells me a story bout auto zone, that they buy up parts that didn't pass inspection & were getting shipped overseas at pennies on the dollar, whatever the case, I don't think I will deal with them anymore if I ever get these returns done, I'm afraid to even get the replacements there but what option will I have?
At least it's running again, teary eyes & all!
 

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