Rusty's not very quiet cuda progress

Pretty sure it was the 170's I think 175 was the high & that one 165 was the low.
Yea I went back a few times looking for something took forever, that's what I get for posting every gory detail!

I was in the car what was floating away when I go out looked gray?
 
I was in the car what was floating away when I go out looked gray?
The next time you've got it up to temp, stand next to the car and goose it a few times with throttle arm. Keep your eye toward the back of the car so you can determine the smoke's color better. It's another thing where you have to wait until the engine at full operating temperature.

Blue/bluish-gray is burnt oil, black is unburnt fuel (too rich), and white is usually coolant (steam). The only time I can really think you'd see straight-up gray (very light gray) is condensation steaming off in the exhaust when it and the are cold, and even then you won't see that floating away. It dissipates very quickly, a couple of feet from the car unless ambient temps are really low.

If you've got white smoke, and noticeable amounts of it, keep a close eye on your coolant level and motor oil. If there's coolant leakage into the combustion chamber, obviously you'll lose coolant. Not so obviously, it can work its way into the oil too. You'll recognize that immediately because the oil on the end of the dipstick will start to look foggy and milky, eventually resembling a chocolate milkshake if the cause is left uncorrected.

Black smoke? You and your tuning tools probably need to spend some quality time with the new carb. I don't think you'll find that to be a problem, although you might get a smattering of it when you stand on it under load. That's pretty common and maybe not worth the tuning time to correct. If it's smoking black in the driveway, though, you may need to revisit the fuel pump. That condition would also be accompanied by eye-watering, nose-burning fumes. If that's the case, with a brand-new carburetor, check your fuel pressure. Unloaded, i.e. playing in the driveway, you should only see a quick whoosh of black when you zing the engine.

Don't be too concerned about blue/blue-gray smoke right now unless there's a lot of it--mosquito-fogger amounts. This engine's sat idle since what, 1956? The Great Depression? It's not uncommon to have a stuck ring create some blue fog after sitting for long periods. That was the case with my Dakota's 3.9 and both of my Valiants' Slant Sixes. Stretch's Dart did the same thing for awhile. Unless you've got Kiss-concert levels of smoke, concentrate on other things. Stuck rings work themselves out over time. My '68 Valiant cleared up very quickly, whist the Dakota and Dart took quite some time. Get to where you can drive it, and every once in awhile perform a... um... "passing manuever" (stand on it) for a second or two when driving presents the chance. A little extra cylinder pressure helps free stuck rings.
 
OK 2 things I can verify now, the smoke was black but not like diesel black, pretty light.
& standing behind the car not overwhelming, no teary eyes.
Not sure my tach is accurate, at 800ish she bumps a little when put in gear, can't get lower is gets pretty rough & starts to stall.
I have to adjust the high idle a bit, I put it back on the highest one after warm & it was about 2000.
Didn't have the tach hooked up cold, will do that next "tunning" session.
At least I pump to set the choke & it starts right up. after warm just turn the key no gas pedal needed, granted it's warm out see next winter where all that goes out the window?
Timing was right around 10, we tried it at 5 & idle slowed & it got rough & vacuum dropped to that 6or7 area.
10" is about where she's at now at low idle.
We did notice the car did not stall when we went all the way in on the mixture screws, vacuum did drop off some & returned to around 10 at about 1 1/2 turns out on each, never hit that 12 mark today?
 
OK 2 things I can verify now, the smoke was black but not like diesel black, pretty light.
& standing behind the car not overwhelming, no teary eyes.
Not sure my tach is accurate, at 800ish she bumps a little when put in gear, can't get lower is gets pretty rough & starts to stall.
I have to adjust the high idle a bit, I put it back on the highest one after warm & it was about 2000.
The fast-idle recommendation is 1,800RPM, so you're pretty close. Recheck that reading when it's cold--that's the only time that particular adjustment matters. It exists solely to get the engine warm quickly and the engine should be at that RPM for less than a minute. Goosing the throttle drops it.

At least I pump to set the choke & it starts right up. after warm just turn the key no gas pedal needed, granted it's warm out see next winter where all that goes out the window?
It probably won't, but what difference does it make? Are you going to drive it in the snow?

Timing was right around 10, we tried it at 5...
Why?! You're going in the wrong direction.

One more time for the people in the cheap seats:

The factory initial timing number on the emissions decal and in the service manual is not Gospel, it's worthless. The factory timing number is a C.Y.A. (Cover Your Ass) setting that only benefitted Chrysler by keeping stupid people out of their service departments when the car was new. The original number should be ignored outright.
People do stupid things with cars. They tow race cars, large boats, campers, and enclosed trailers. They often do do with a full load of passengers and enough luggage for a week's vacation (not possible in an E-body, but I digress). They might do this in Rockies or the Appalachians, either because it's where they live or that's their destination. The initial timing was the same across all body styles for any given engine; a 360-4V in a Duster has the same timing (and emissions decal) as it would in a C-body wagon. In fact, the timing was set well before the engine ever made it into the car.

Example #1: Aunt Eunice buys a 1974 Satellite wagon, and since she's got a 28' cuddy-cabin boat, she needs some extra power. She specifies the 360HP engine to cover the need. She owns a cabin on Lake Tahoe, enjoys bringing half the extended family with her--she has no kids of her own, which explains the new car, boat, and lake house--and is usually in a hurry to get there. She always tanks up at "the cheapest gas in Galena!" If her shiny new Satellite starts spark knocking whilst passing a 427 Corvette uphill on Nevada 431 with seven passengers and the boat behind her, she will be the loudest person in the service department Monday morning. She'll be screaming blue murder about how she bought this wagon to pull a boat in the mountains, and why would it be a wagon if she wasn't gonna haul people too?
The Chrysler Corporation knew Aunt Eunice existed, not because they'd met but because Chrysler had been at this awhile. They planned ahead for her cheap gas, severe overload, high-altitude shenanigans. Hell, they had multiple Proving Grounds for no other reason than testing "worst-case scenario" conditions. Chrysler's testing determined that on crap fuel, pulling the 8,000lb boat, her fat sister & brother-in-law and their fat kids, with the cargo area and roof rack packed to capacity, the AC running and her foot in the water pump, Eunice would have a quiet, pleasurable driving experience despite all her efforts to the contrary. They set the timing at 5°BTDC literally for that reason.

Extreme case? Not hardly. We had a customer last week who wants a Class IV hitch for their Saturn Vue. I can't speak for others, but pulling a 28' camper with a tippy little AWD wagon with a 106" wheelbase sounds terrifying to me. We won't even get into the failure-prone 3.6L V6 (not "if", but "when") or the weak-sister transmission to which it's bolted. Damn it, they want to go camping and that's the vehicle they've got.

Not timing for your use case is leaving both power and efficiency on the table. Power may not be a huge deal to you, but I'll bet fuel economy is. With $3+/gallon fuel, I'll take every mile per gallon I can get, thanks.

I'd consider 12° to be minimum, with 14° more like it. I don't actually set initial ("static") timing a'tall. I run the engine at a speed where I know all of the mechanical advance is in play (usually 3,000RPM) and set the timing for 34-35°. Obviously, this is still done with the vacuum advance disconnected and the hose blocked. Usually this results in static timing between 14-18°. Spark knock has never been a concern, and unlike you, I consistently beat the crap out of my cars.

Example #2: When Lumpy started driving my old Fifth Avenue, Stretch had changed the rear axle. The original was 2.27:1 ratio and the replacement was 2.94:1. The car was completly gutless and 14MPG on the highway was an achievement. The factory ESA ignition was problematic, so I installed a 340 electronic distributor and parts-store ignition box, along with a ThermoQuad and Edelbrock Performer intake. I set the total timing at 35°BTDC. That was a heavy car and she has an even heavier foot. It ran like a scalded cat and pulled down 17-18MPG highway. It never once preignited or detonated (spark knocked) in two years of driving on the cheapest gas available. It was no rocket, but it was way quicker than it should've been for stone-stock internals and factory single exhaust through original manifolds. Leadfoot Lump certainly enjoyed driving it. I never knew what the initial timing was, but I would guess it was 14-18° based on experience with similar distributors. In fact, I think Stretch's Charger is around 15° after he set the total timing to 35°. He's owned that car for 25 years and never heard a spark knock.

I think you'll also find tuning to be easier with the idle advanced beyond 10°BTDC. More advance = more idle speed, which you then remove with the idle speed screw back to the factory number. You'll also have a steadier curb idle, especially in gear.

We did notice the car did not stall when we went all the way in on the mixture screws, vacuum did drop off some & returned to around 10 at about 1 1/2 turns out on each, never hit that 12 mark today?
Is the needle steady on the vacuum gauge?

It shouldn't necessarily stall, but it should run poorly. If it didn't, you may still have too much idle-speed adjustment. Once again, we're back to timing. Try it at 12-15°. Your idle speed will increase, allowing you to back off the idle-speed screw. Your mixture screws will have more effect with a lower primary throttle opening at idle.

Yes, I realize the scale on the timing cover only goes to 10°. That's why I only use a dial-back timing light, but if you haven't got one available there's an easy workaround. Manually turn the engine over until the line on the damper is at 10°BTDC. Take an indelible marker (a fine-line Sharpie is ideal, get a silver one if your damper is black) and make a mark on the damper equal to 5° on the scale. Now when you time it, that's your "plus 5" mark. If that line is at 10° then you've got 15° of timing.


If it's not evident by now, I'm gonna scream from the mountaintops about timing forever. Timing is everything.
 
Yep, when it goes over 10 the mark disappears under the pump housing so I couldn't tell where it was at.

K, printed that out will highlight the extra mark part!
 
Muffler hangers came in today, with these I should be able to get about an inch and a half higher with the exhaust, then I guess I don't find out till I drive it if the whole car shakes, they will be mounted to the trans cross brace bolts???
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At least I can move it around now & get it in the garage, nice to see it getting a little closer to the actual street!
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from a second story window!
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Now I can call the stripe guy & get my hocky stripe on.
 
Yep, when it goes over 10 the mark disappears under the pump housing so I couldn't tell where it was at.

K, printed that out will highlight the extra mark part!
You need a better timing light with an advance so you read the timing at the zero mark and where you've got the timing light set.

Myself, I'd set it at 15 and quit diddling with it. I went through this with the 400 engine, that one ended up at 20 IIRC trying to get the vacuum up. I limited the advance in the distributor so it only goes as far as 34 (on the centrifugal advance). But who am I to tell you to quit messing with it - I'm the guy who wasted weeks trying to get the TB to slide in when I should've just hammered it in and called it good.
 
OK OK me try 15 & call it a day.

The other motor I think was worked a little more radical than this, I just read the book set it on 5 & everything ran fine, whether it had it's full potential is another matter, it was more power than I would ever use on the road!
 
OK OK me try 15 & call it a day.

The other motor I think was worked a little more radical than this, I just read the book set it on 5 & everything ran fine, whether it had it's full potential is another matter, it was more power than I would ever use on the road!
It's not just power, it's also economy. More power at the same RPM means less throttle input. Why burn unnecessary fuel?
 
Well it's not surprising, I had no idea about any of this, it's nice to learn some new stuff, it takes real pounding in but you can teach an old dog new tricks!

Oh yea 68, I have the address & didn't throw away the carb box, so you will get the old piece in a nice new box!

Heading out to try and get some basic adjustments done, will start with checking the fast idle when she's cold, then set the timing at 15 when she's warm, then reset the reg idle & see where all that ends up?

Thanks guys!
 
OK, cold (well it was pretty warm out) she's only about 1200, but the choke didn't even close, I left that alone for now.

Hard to see he timing mark, It's on silver so I went black, but there;s a small white stripe under it in the middle.
got it warmed up & set the timing to 15BTDC, lowered the idle to 800, vac made it to about 13, but still jumping around?
I think this is my base, maybe the best it will be? adjustment screws are out about 1 1/2 turns.

went around the back no smoke at all under idle.



Finished buffing the roof & top of fenders, funny outside you don't pick up much, brought it in & some still show but mucho better, I think I will call it "good enough"

then I crawled under to check out the new hangers, these will get me a lot closer. 20240610_132659.jpg
Now I have to decide, 3rd hole (top) gets me about 1 inch higher, but second hole takes it all the way up, almost exactly the 3/4 TTI said it should be, but I think that will actually lift the back of the motor, not sure I want that riding on the exhaust?

right now the 2 low spots are 3 3/4 off the ground, header flange & upswing by the x pipe.

1st hole should end up around 5, second a tad better than 6?

What to do, what to do?
Cut down & ready to go in. 20240610_160837.jpg
 
The vacuum needle's more steady than I expected. It's not jittery, which is good. I think you're probably as good as you're gonna get there.

My co-worker wants to know what mufflers you have on the car. She likes the way it sounds and her AMX's mufflers are rusting out.

As far as advising you on exhaust, that's such a car-to-car variable it's hard to say what'll work. I did a lot of pipe-twisting to get as much ground clearance as possible on the Valiant. The low point on that car is absolutely the X-pipe, just prior to the X-joint itself where it comes off the collectors. There was really no way around that with the way the headers are made. It's evident that the pipes going into the X-joint itself swing upward in this photo:

100_3630-jpg.21591
 
15 deg. BTDC, 15# at 800 rpm, and even the idle screws are in the ballpark at 1-1/2 turns. You've got yourself a slightly rumpity cam. At least it's not radical. Too many with the "bigger is better" mindset put in cams that don't idle under 1300 rpm.
 
Well that was a bit of work for almost nothing, used the top hole I didn't want too much weight on the system, at the crossmember I gained maybe 3/4of an inch.
Still almost 2 down there TTI says 3/4"? 20240612_143929.jpgAt the header flange I got maybe over a tad over an inch, a smidge under 5, but the new clamp is the new low point at 4 3/4" 20240612_151414.jpgPass side pretty close to the same #'s 20240612_145803.jpgThis operation did not move the motor, I don't think I can get to the next hole on the passenger side, it was a stretch on that side, exhaust as high (started lifting the car) as I could get the pipes?
 
If I had to guess, I'd say the TTi instructions have some of the dimensions (like that ¾" clearance number) lifted from the non-header exhaust system instructions. I don't honestly see how it could go any higher with the pipes that are there. The headers have a natural downward tilt and the X-pipe is, in my opinion, wa-a-ay too far back. I don't think you made any mistake; I think that's how TTi designed it. I just don't see any way in hell to lift that exhaust any further without bumping a slight bend into each extension pipe between the collector flange and the X-pipe inlet. I'd say 10-15° between the collector flare and that first band-type clamp would do it.


The only TTi parts on my Valiant were the headers. I used a universal Summit Racing 3" X-pipe and modified it to fit. I have about 1" clearance at the torsion-bar crossmember with no extension pipes. The inlets of the X-pipe start curving upward at the first bend. Compare where your X-junction is in comparison to mine using the transmission crossmember as the reference (the E-body tailshaft housing is much longer, plus your transmission mount is on the front side of the crossmember). That was the only way I could get any kind of ground clearance at all, and I doubt I have 5".

100_3625-jpg.21582
 

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