My 71 Duster work in progress

[b-body-bob]

Jeez, I didn't even notice in your picture that the bolt wasn't into the head. My powers of observation fail me.

Looking at a picture of my engine before the alternator was installed, it looks like the bolt holes are in the same place between the Ed L. Brock heads and the W2s. My brackets are reproductions as well, and they fit perfectly. At first I thought they were defective, but I was trying to install the bracket in the wrong place on the alternator (it was a fore/aft issue). I was sent another set, and by the time they arrived I'd figured out my mistake. I bought them from Van's Auto, and they came in a Ziploc bag with an instruction sheet--which I obviously ignored--brackets, spacers, and bolt.

Something's horseshit here, especially if you have a bracket that does fit. You clearly have a '70-up timing cover since the marks are on the driver's side, an aluminum pump which is also 1970 & newer, and repro brackets for the same application. The holes in the heads never changed position across LA production to my knowledge. If the bracket that fits has one curved side and a hole through the middle of it, that's a 1969-older part for use with an iron water pump. That setup used different spacers, including one behind the bracket at the timing cover, due to the cast-iron water pump. Since the holes in the head never changed, it makes no sense why one bracket fits and the other doesn't.

As an additional snafu, the early bracket is flat and mounts the alternator in a different position laterally. The '70-up pulleys won't align to the alternator pulley using the '69-older bracketry. Literally everything changed with the aluminum water pump, so there's no mixing and matching across the dividing line without some kind of fabrication or butchery.

I'm not sure what the solution is, because I really can't figure out why it won't align.

As far as the pulleys go, the 318 numbers I posted from the 1974 parts book are common on eBay, which isn't surprsing since both are probably the most-common Mopar pulleys on the planet. One user posted photos with depth measurements of both his crank and water pump pulleys, showing they'll align. Both are "best offer" listings. Regarding new, if Bouchillon's information is to be believed (and I see no reason to doubt them), then 440Source sells the same crankshaft pulley for $50 less. 440Source's pulley measurements also align with those in the eBay listing. I've never dealt with 440Source but I've heard wonderful things. I have dealt with Bouchillon and will avoid doing so at any cost in the future. I'm not alone.

It does look like dude's stroker motor would align with the bolt-on timing "mark" you have. However, with a Chinese crank and just-as-Asian damper, all bets are off. With a factory steel crank, OE damper and timing cover, my W2 engine's timing marks are as dead-nuts at TDC as one could hope. They're misaligned by maybe 1/2°, which I'd call "close enough for what I'm doing". That's not to say yours is, of course, so making a piston stop out of an old spark plug is a great idea.

This is simply a problem of needing to hit it one more time in the stamping press. Or get heavier equipment. The POS chrome one fits perfectly. Even where I thought the bolt was too long, it really wasn't - I just hadn't put the small spacer in. Everything in the kit worked except the upper mount. It's so thick there's really no way I'm going to bend it it not make a mess of it, so write it off as being lucky I had kept that chrome part.

You can kind of see it here, but it's crooked enough with the bolt sitting in the hole that it ain't threading in.



The bracket has an S-bend in it but not as severe as what the chrome piece has.

And here it is with old Chinese technology that fits right.



There's plenty of space with a square back alt and E-heads.



On the crank pulley, I've got two dual groove parts, one I measured as 7-1/4 diameter, the other one 6-3/4. The larger one is also offset an extra 1/4 away from the balancer. So the small one actually looks like it lines up better than the large one. Bouchillon lists their part at 7-3/8". The larger pulley will spin the WP and alt faster. I'm 90% sure the large one came off the 400. Hard to say where the other one came from.

I've gotta buy a WP pulley tomorrow, then this will be over with. The PS pump is rebuilt and mounted, no problems and I've got a new pressure hose. I've got a cop car cooler I'm thinking about using. I don't see me working the steering to where it's overheating, but, I have it.

 

[b-body-bob]

One user posted photos with depth measurements of both his crank and water pump pulleys, showing they'll align.

His measurements are even different from mine.

His crank pulley is the same depth as my small pulley (the one that aligns better), but it's the same diameter as my large one. So that is likely the one I need. I am heading back out to see if I can read the part number off my parts.

 

[b-body-bob]

There's no part numbers on either of the dual pulleys, but the PN on the 3-groove is plain as day to see.

I stuck the big pulley back on it, and sure enough it doesn't line up. So it's the small one, or buy one. AFAICT BPE doesn't list the overall depth, only the diameter.

Also ... 440 source and the e-bay auction both show two diameters for the two grooves, but mine look to be the same IIRC. Gotta go look again.

 

[Dr.Jass]

There's a solid reason I no longer scrap pulleys. Hell, I even have the 4-groove beast off my motorhome 440, which I'm almost positive I'll never use.

 

[b-body-bob]

One of the pulleys was large/small, I think it was the larger of the two. I put it back on, and I swear it doesn't align with either the WP or the PS belt. I've got no idea what that thing's from. I'd have to strip it to see a part number, it's slick glossy black.

440source gets $20 shipping, so that crank pulley turns into $79.

The e-bay crank pulley is $82 shipped at asking price. I hate haggling. They never want to take an offer, that's just there because e-bay makes them do it. The measurement exactly matches the one I've got that looks right, and a repop? It might not.

I'm thinking though, now much difference is 7.25-6.75=.5 inch in diameter going to cause. Also, the inner (alt/water pump) side is the same on the e-bay one and the smaller one - it's only the outer pulley that's the difference. I think I just figured out what kind of car it's from - late 70's fleet car, possibly a cop car. Less rotations on the PS pump due to the reduced diameter of the outermost pulley would stiffen up the steering. W00t there it is.

If that's right then all I need now is a water pump pulley. I bought out a guy's garage and got a ton of stuff from that era - he was the county's contract garage. I found a small block coil bracket that probably came from the same place (and the cooler). Bought a set of cop wheels and two truckloads of stuff came with it.

 

[b-body-bob]

Still need to clean at the cooler.



You can see all my plans for pretty paint went down the tubes.

 

[Dr.Jass]

440source gets $20 shipping, so that crank pulley turns into $79.

OK, so now it's "only" $50 less than Douchillon, who doesn't ship for free either last I knew. It's probably coming out of the same factory.

The e-bay crank pulley is $82 shipped at asking price. I hate haggling. They never want to take an offer, that's just there because e-bay makes them do it. The measurement exactly matches the one I've got that looks right, and a repop? It might not.

eBay does no such thing. Best Offers are totally the seller's decision. I've bought a lot of stuff on Best Offer. I give 'em my offer and they either accept, counteroffer, or decline. If one of the first two, then I either decline or accept. I'm not getting into lengthy back/forth negotiations.

One thing I do, though is when searching for a particular item, I always sort by "Newly listed". Why, you ax? Because it then shows you the date the item was posted. I bought a "Mopar parts lot" a couple of months ago because the seller didn't know what he had and it had been listed for over two years. He was asking $400 + $186 shipping; I got the whole show for $300 shipped, including 6% sales tax. He was tired of tripping over the stuff, which were large, heavy items. The date shown doesn't show the year, but scrolling back it's pretty easy to determine how long it's been listed.

One of the pulleys was large/small, I think it was the larger of the two. I put it back on, and I swear it doesn't align with either the WP or the PS belt. I've got no idea what that thing's from. I'd have to strip it to see a part number, it's slick glossy black.

Could be Hemi, Slant Six, or pre-'70 LA engine. Hell, it could be poly. If it doesn't fit, you must acquit (it to the scrap or "not for this project" pile).

I'm thinking though, now much difference is 7.25-6.75=.5 inch in diameter going to cause. Also, the inner (alt/water pump) side is the same on the e-bay one and the smaller one - it's only the outer pulley that's the difference. I think I just figured out what kind of car it's from - late 70's fleet car, possibly a cop car. Less rotations on the PS pump due to the reduced diameter of the outermost pulley would stiffen up the steering. W00t there it is.

If that's right then all I need now is a water pump pulley. I bought out a guy's garage and got a ton of stuff from that era - he was the county's contract garage. I found a small block coil bracket that probably came from the same place (and the cooler). Bought a set of cop wheels and two truckloads of stuff came with it.

I don't believe there's a different pulley for cop cars. They used a modified steering box for the "firm feel" steering option (which was available to anyone, for the record). By that time, squads and taxis almost universally had AC too, which would've been a 3- or 4-groove pulley, depending on year. Regardless, Chrysler power steering is almost always over-assisted in my experience. My '71 Challenger has power steering, so it's getting a Tuff wheel. The steering's too floaty with the giant standard or optional Rim Blow wheels. I have a Rim Blow for the '74, but that's not only manual, it's fast-ratio (16:1) so the extra leverage will be welcome.

I'd be very surprised to find out that with a large haul like that in which you already found a crank pulley, there wouldn't be a water pump pulley. It's probably the most-common pulley Chrysler made (it's the same on trucks & vans). I probably have ten of 'em--unfortunately a damn sight less than the number of engines I have.

 

[b-body-bob]

I sure didn't find a WP pulley but bought one from ebay. I'm going to go with that lower pulley that lines up. I'll have to measure for the belt but NBD. It's all in perfect alignment I've got a small grant wheel on it to make up for the floaty steering already.

I figured out the timing to. It's where it should be and of course the timing mark on the cover is correct. The other gadget is for a Lean Burn diagnostic hookup.

While I was turning the motor over messing around with the timing I also double-checked the valves. I've definitely got two pushrods that are at the limits of adjustment but they're set right and I'm going to go with it.

Those poly ball joint boots I bought don't seem to fit right, but I think the idea is they fit good enough to hold grease. The OD on them is about the same as the OD on the ball joint itself but I think it will stretch a bit and do the job.

If I could find plans for a run stand I might cobble one together but can't find anything but photos and scant descriptions and don't want to mess around trying to fab something together. So it's going to go in the chassis leaks and other trouble be damned.

 

[Dr.Jass]

If I were going to build a run stand, I'd probably just cut up a car. Leave the core support in place with just enough inner fenders to support it. I'd lop the rails off behind the K-member and weld a crossbar between them. Add four legs with casters. The engine and radiator mounting points are already sorted out, so you'd just need to fabricate your "control panel" and mounting provisions for ignition, battery, etc. Hell, if you left enough of the LH inner, you could leave the OE battery tray in place.

I'd use a '66-'72 B-body or '70-'74 E-body if possible, since their V8 K-members are compact and accept both A and B/RB engines, and either's core support will accomodate a fairly large radiator.

 

[b-body-bob]

Dang, wouldn't you know that b-body beside the house is a /6

I wouldn't be surprised if a guy could just fab up some kind of something for the K-frame to just sit on, leave the trans jack under the back, use some bedrail to make a rad/control mounting frame. All the weight's down low and there's no reason it would want to roll over. The only trick would be to mount it all as one piece so if it moves it moves together.

Gina's uncle has one set up for a SBC. It hangs the engine by the bellhousing on an engine stand and somehow it has a support to the motor mounts and mounts a rad/switch panel to it. It really ain't worth nothing to me to buy it but scrap iron to repurpose, and if I borrow it I have to change it up to mount a Mopar on it, so that's a no go too.

 

[Dr.Jass]

Yeah, supporting the back of the engine missed me entirely, but it'd just involve a plate drilled with the A833 mounting pattern supported by the framework to adapt to a bellhousing. You've gotta have a bellhousing, of course, and a flywheel. You can't start a Mopar without both.

 

[b-body-bob]

With the transmission mounted and in neutral I could just put the aforementioned trans jack back there to hold the back of it up. That's the way it's going to be when it's installed.

I keep looking at it thinking the K-frame mounts are parallel and level when mounted. With a T-shaped standing bracket that kind of slots inside it where the bolt head would normally be, and a bedframe bolted with that to the top of the k-frame, I'm half way there. I would need to also work up some kind of triangulation to keep the brackets standing upright. 1-3/4" square tube fits right inside the K-frame. the ear on the K-frame is about 10" above the level of the cart, so stand-offs a little taller than that would be perfect.

Fab that up, bolt it to a cart similar to what it's sitting on now (needs to be wider) and I'm your uncle. I need to work something out to stop it from rolling away, and still letting it roll when I need it to. Maybe just pick it up and set it on some cribbing when it's going to be running.

FWIW I've got the race harness out of the A12 that will work perfectly for this. It's all mounted to a piece of aluminum and ready to go.

 

[Dr.Jass]

With the transmission mounted and in neutral I could just put the aforementioned trans jack back there to hold the back of it up. That's the way it's going to be when it's installed.

You're gonna drive it around on a trans jack?

Keep in mind you'll need a yoke, along with a speedo adapter and gear to keep the transmission fluid from leaking. That being said, also remember that a 4-speed with no driveshaft is going to turn its output shaft--at pretty high speed--with the engine running, neutral or not. The gears are constant mesh and the output shaft will turn, regardless of the synchros' engagement status.

I'm, uh--lucky?--in that I've got two bellhousings perfect for a run stand, one LA and one B/RB. Both are 100% functional but have cracks. Neither would probably bring a plug nickel if I tried to sell, so I may as well keep 'em. I'd just as soon leave the transmission out of the equation entirely.

I keep looking at it thinking the K-frame mounts are parallel and level when mounted. With a T-shaped standing bracket that kind of slots inside it where the bolt head would normally be, and a bedframe bolted with that to the top of the k-frame, I'm half way there. I would need to also work up some kind of triangulation to keep the brackets standing upright. 1-3/4" square tube fits right inside the K-frame. the ear on the K-frame is about 10" above the level of the cart, so stand-offs a little taller than that would be perfect.

Fab that up, bolt it to a cart similar to what it's sitting on now (needs to be wider) and I'm your uncle. I need to work something out to stop it from rolling away, and still letting it roll when I need it to. Maybe just pick it up and set it on some cribbing when it's going to be running.

This is all very confusing to me. I'm not following the "T-shaped standing bracket" nor the cart of which you speak.

FWIW I've got the race harness out of the A12 that will work perfectly for this. It's all mounted to a piece of aluminum and ready to go.

That may be the only real use you ever have for it.

 

[b-body-bob]

You're gonna drive it around on a trans jack?

When I install it under the car, lift the engine up and pick up the transmission and put the x-member in, the trans jack's work is done.

This is all very confusing to me. I'm not following the "T-shaped standing bracket" nor the cart of which you speak.

I admit it, I have a problem with brainstorming out loud here.

This is the cart
I am definitely interested in finding out how that k-frame sits once the engine is bolted to it. The center link is sitting on the upright boards now with it centered up on the cart so I should be able to stick a piece of hardwood between that and the oil pan and get it to sit there until I build out everything on the back of the engine. I'm not worried about the cart holding the weight but I am a little concerned that the engine will want to fall off the cart backward until I get the transmission on with the jack under it.

As for my wild eyed idea to turn that into a run stand, imagine that wider, so it extends out under the ears on the k-frame, then a square steel 1-3/4" upright off that with a bolt surface on the top and a triangulated mount at the bottom. The top bolts to the k-frame, the bottom to the cart. Bolted to the top surface of the K-frame I would use bed frame or angle or something to build out a place to mount a radiator. Pick it up and sit it on cribbing to run, take it off the cribbing to roll.

At one point not long ago there were plans available on e-bay to build your own stand as seen on Roadkill or whatever, but that is long gone and I've never found a copy stored online, but was looking again just today.

I should probably just buy one of these Summit Racing SUM-918015 Summit Racing™ Engine Run Stands | Summit Racing $$$ ouch, or give up on the idea. I could see me using it once more, maybe twice, so I don't want to sink a bunch of money in it.

That may be the only real use you ever have for it.

Unless I use it a piece at a time, and it's unlikely I will ever need it for that either.

 

[b-body-bob]

Looking at the pre-built stands, it doesn't look like headers would clear the framework.



The second one has the exhaust facing the operator unless you have fancy wrap around headers or the two mounting points are swappable front to back. It's $300 less and comes with gauges that may or may not work according to the reviews. $500 is still too much.

 

[Dr.Jass]

The second one has the engine photoshopped into the image. Very badly, as it happens.

The headers look like an MC Escher drawing. How does the #8 primary go straight down and end up in front of the crossbar that supports the engine between the #2 & #4 cylinders? Whatever pipe is behind the #8 tube is twice its OD, despite being half its OD ahead of it. What happened to the block betwixt #6 and #8?!

The "fuel cell" and gauge panel are also both photoshopped into their respective spots, with neither being from the same photo as each other nor the stand itself. Combine the fact that said stand has apparently never had an actual engine on it with the lack of cooling provisions, or any way to start the engine on anything but a Chevrolet for that matter, I can see why it's $300 cheaper.

Every time I get caught up in the idea of making a run stand, I eventually remember its uselessness for the space it consumes. Unless you're building engines simply to sell, what's the advantage, or even purpose? That's money I could put into the car rather than a corner of the garage. I'll just keep starting engines in the cars in which they'll remain installed.

 

[b-body-bob]

Hey now the instructions tell you to hook it up to a garden hose.

If I could build something cheap that I can take apart to store, then I'd do it to avoid putting the engine in and finding an oil pan leak or something like that where the engine gets to come back out. I've got this motor and then an RB for the road runner to do, if I last that long, so I would get some use out of it but $500 plus additional fab to make it work ain't cheap.

I've got the problem of even getting material here. Yeah there are steel wholesalers, no they don't want to sell stuff to Joe Walkin. So there's that too.

I also just thought about what a hassle it's going to be to move the car forward without the k-frame in it too, since the run stand needs to be right at the door since I'm not going to plumb it outside. A hassle, but doable, but would be a catastrophe if something goes wrong.

 

[b-body-bob]

Unless someone can jump on here and give me a reason not to do it, I'm thinking of priming the oil system, greasing the cam/lifters one more time, and bolting the intake on with the next stop being the k-frame.

Another alternative is to put the motor on the k-frame and hold off on putting the intake on until right before it's ready to lift in.

It's still going to be a while before I get it ready to start. It's would take a weekend and then some if I work steady at it, which I will not. "You can lie to whoever you want, but never lie to yourself"

 

[b-body-bob]

Checked the picker will reach far enough with the k-frame on the cart, and replaced one ripped tie rod boot.

I think I'm going to pick it up by the heads without the intake on it and set it on the k-frame to start building the flywheel/clutch/bellhousing/trans. I'll put the intake/valve covers on it to cover (as I do now) but waiting to add oil and close off access to the valve train won't hurt anything.

The k-frame is pretty much centered on the cart. It will be interesting to see how the engine sits on that rigged up mess. With the center link and k-frame sitting solid on boards it should sit with all weight (and potential momentum) straight down.

 

[Dr.Jass]

Unless someone can jump on here and give me a reason not to do it, I'm thinking of priming the oil system, greasing the cam/lifters one more time, and bolting the intake on with the next stop being the k-frame.

I'm unclear why you'd prime the pump now. Since it's not a closed/sealed system, the pump will lose prime long before you get around to starting the engine. You'll either have to prime it again or you'll start the engine with a dry pump you thought was primed. The only thing you'll accomplish by priming it now is a nice pre-rinse of all those assembly-lubed bearings.