My 71 Duster work in progress
- Thread starter b-body-bob
- Start date
b-body-bob
Well-known member
Another thing came to mind. I checked the new lifters for crown and found that some are easy to compress, others not so much. Should I take them apart or is that just the way it is? I'm leaning toward don't take them apart because at least now they're not missing any parts AFAIK 
b-body-bob
Well-known member
The last time I did a cam swap the common wisdom was to stick them in a can full of 40 wt and pump em with a pushrod until they were solid. Yes it was a long long time ago.
I also know that if I ask on other forums, the response will be yeah you should always take them apart because there's never anything wrong but what if there was? And I wonder but what if there was nothing wrong but something I did messed one or more up?
<sigh>
I also know that if I ask on other forums, the response will be yeah you should always take them apart because there's never anything wrong but what if there was? And I wonder but what if there was nothing wrong but something I did messed one or more up?
<sigh>
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Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
Well, taking 'em apart is your call. Don't pump them up until they're solid. Drop 'em in oil so they've got some lubrication and that's it. Install them as-is, prime the engine and start it, going directly into your cam break-in run. One thing I do to get revving quickly is run the idle screw in a few turns so I'm actually a little on the primary circuit. There's little chance of an off-idle stall if the engine immediately goes to 1,500RPM upon starting. 
Worry about the big stuff. Is every oil galley plug installed? Nothing will break your heart faster than starting a new engine and realizing 10 seconds into the break-in that you've no oil pressure. You have no choice but to stop, diagnose, repair and start anew. Most likely your cam will not live terribly long but it won't flatten immediately. This exact situation happened with my 440+6 and I still got 9,800 miles before the engine developed a miss because a cam lobe was flat. My machinist, being a nice guy (I neither asked him nor paid to do it), installed all the core and cam plugs, but missed one. Thank God it was easily fixed in the car, if not easily diagnosed.
Worry about the big stuff. Is every oil galley plug installed? Nothing will break your heart faster than starting a new engine and realizing 10 seconds into the break-in that you've no oil pressure. You have no choice but to stop, diagnose, repair and start anew. Most likely your cam will not live terribly long but it won't flatten immediately. This exact situation happened with my 440+6 and I still got 9,800 miles before the engine developed a miss because a cam lobe was flat. My machinist, being a nice guy (I neither asked him nor paid to do it), installed all the core and cam plugs, but missed one. Thank God it was easily fixed in the car, if not easily diagnosed.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
I took the lazy way out and had the machine shop do the core and galley plugs. All of them that I can see are in. The two in the front are not staked. Books and reading say it's a good idea to do that.
Obviously I cannot see the one behind the rear cam plug. I also need to measure the depth of the remaining one that you're not recommended to mess with. Because they probably did.
#1 is about .027 in the hole. A .026 fits and a .028 doesn't, but and I couldn't find an .027 in the set.
Also, I found out that the Magnum tensioner doesn't play well with a double roller so I've got a new one in the box. Maybe I'll use it some day. More reading leads me to believe the silent chain and tensioner is the way to go - IF you must have the tensioner.
Obviously I cannot see the one behind the rear cam plug. I also need to measure the depth of the remaining one that you're not recommended to mess with. Because they probably did.
#1 is about .027 in the hole. A .026 fits and a .028 doesn't, but and I couldn't find an .027 in the set.
Also, I found out that the Magnum tensioner doesn't play well with a double roller so I've got a new one in the box. Maybe I'll use it some day. More reading leads me to believe the silent chain and tensioner is the way to go - IF you must have the tensioner.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
Definitely double-check everything. The one you're not supposed to mess with is critical.
I just use my dial indicator for this. I did measure all eight on mine, and found a few thousandths variance with an average, as I recall, of .026" above deck. Of course, I was using open-chamber W2s so that wasn't a concern. Now that I've got closed-chamber heads, I need to run thicker head gaskets. Quench should be great, but it ate up any compression increase I might've gotten.
Not surprising. I think we discussed this a few pages back. The double-roller chain will just create plastic shavings in the oil pan and not much else.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
It didn't even come close to fitting. AFAICT there was no way to get the chain between the tensioners. Hell it's hard enough getting the chain on without the gadget.
BTW it's been a long time but I don't remember working on an engine where you can shove the cam back in the block but on at least mine, I can and it depends on the cam cover and the timing gear to position it. I'm going forward presuming that's normal.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
Well crap. I went looking for the plug that shall not be messed with and find it's under the rear main cap, which ain't coming back out now. I was thinking it was in the valley.
Oh well. Since it's kind of hidden I doubt they would've pulled that one by default. If they knew it is there, they should also know how to put it back in correctly.
Hopefully.
Oh well. Since it's kind of hidden I doubt they would've pulled that one by default. If they knew it is there, they should also know how to put it back in correctly.
Hopefully.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
Problem - the cam seems to be nearly .010 short on lift, both lobes. Only checked #1 cylinder so far.
It should be .0337 on both, but I'm seeing .330 I .328 E
I can turn it over and over and it keeps stopping at those numbers and returning to zero.
That's not normal, is it? I thought machining was an exact science. Build an engine and find out, yeah?
Have not checked duration.
It should be .0337 on both, but I'm seeing .330 I .328 E
I can turn it over and over and it keeps stopping at those numbers and returning to zero.
That's not normal, is it? I thought machining was an exact science. Build an engine and find out, yeah?
Have not checked duration.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
Is your dial indicator 100% aligned with the lifter in both planes? It's not hard to be off just a few degrees and get a parallax error since the lifter is not square to the deck surface. I had my dial indicator inside the block, atop one of the oval holes over the cam, across the flats. The lifters are at a wonky angle and the pushrods even worse. When I had to do it with the heads on, I just ignored the overall reading and went for max lift. That, incidentally, led to the discovery of the banana-shaped--not grooved--rocker shafts. I couldn't get repeatability on the same rocker, much less across several.
Are you using the pushrod cup or the edge of the lifter? You should measure from the lifter's top (outer) edge.
Are you using the pushrod cup or the edge of the lifter? You should measure from the lifter's top (outer) edge.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
The setup is pretty straight. I used both the pushrod cup and the edge. It's got to be something I'm doing wrong. I kind of wonder if I'm topping out on the indicator too.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
What a pain. I started with the exhaust since that's where I left the lifter last night. Stuck the mag base in the valley, fooled around with it some and bang. No problem.
Then I moved to the intake and working in that direction the face of the indicator is behind the china wall. Perfect.
Time for a break.
This is going to turn out to be a case where I should've just gone dot-to-dot and forgot about it.
Then I moved to the intake and working in that direction the face of the indicator is behind the china wall. Perfect.
Time for a break.
This is going to turn out to be a case where I should've just gone dot-to-dot and forgot about it.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
I've got it set up now so the max lift is repeatable. I think that indicates that I'm good to go.
I've taken measurements at both .050 and .020 and both times get 110 for the ICL. It should be 104.
I double-checked/reset TDC, and have the same results for both again.
I've taken measurements at both .050 and .020 and both times get 110 for the ICL. It should be 104.
I double-checked/reset TDC, and have the same results for both again.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
Also too, duration at .050 checks out.
Year:
1964 - 2003
Make:
Chrysler
Engine:
273, 340, 360
Camshaft Type:
Hydraulic Flat Tappet
Basic RPM Range:
1800 to 5800
Valve Lift Intake:
.506
Valve Lift Exhaust:
.506
Duration Intake:
267
Duration Exhaust:
267
Duration at 050 Intake:
220
Duration at 050 Exhaust:
220
Lobe Separation:
108
Intake Centerline:
104
Firing Order:
1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2
Quantity:
1 Each
Country Of Origin:
United States
b-body-bob
Well-known member
I see that a higher number means the cam is retarded. Retarding the cam 6* seems like a lot.
If I got the numbers below right, I'll estimate the CR as ~9.9.
The timing set I've got has 3 slots, 4* +/- at the crank = 2* camshaft so not good enough.
| Advance | Retard | |
|---|---|---|
| General Effect | Improves low-end power and throttle response | Improves power at higher rpm's |
| Intake Valve Opening Event | Happens sooner | Happens later |
| Piston to Valve Clearance | Decreases intake valve clearance | Increases intake valve clearance |
| Moving 4° Causes... | Peak torque about 200 rpm sooner | Peak torque about 200 rpm later |
If I got the numbers below right, I'll estimate the CR as ~9.9.
The timing set I've got has 3 slots, 4* +/- at the crank = 2* camshaft so not good enough.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
I've been juggling advance/retard on the timing chain and making sure the marks are lined up - at this point I couldn't tell you exactly what the open close is. This is madness. I gave up when I moved the crank cog to the Advance mark, which should have made the number smaller. It got larger.
It makes no sense to me - the lift measurement is bang on, ditto for TDC, but still the ICL is off by a large amount.
I've been all day doing the same thing over and over then checking a book, the web, paperwork that came with the cam and degree wheel, hoping I'd have an a-ha moment and see what I'm doing wrong. But that ain't happening. I'm doing it right but still something is going wrong.
I'm going to try again tomorrow. Maybe.
One thing I don't like at all is the hinky extension on the indicator that I have to use. It's threaded but doesn't thread into the indicator so it can kind of flop around. I've felt a "click" and the indicator jumps about .001 - I think that is caused by the extension self-aligning with the indicator.
Whatever it is that's wrong is consistent - I wouldn't expect that if the extension was causing the problem.
FWIW I'm indicating off the top edge of the lifter, with the mag base on the deck between cyls 1 & 3.
I've been measuring .050 before and after max. Not sure if that matters, so long as I measure the same lift on both side of max, it should still work out since I'm trying to find the center between two points.
It makes no sense to me - the lift measurement is bang on, ditto for TDC, but still the ICL is off by a large amount.
I've been all day doing the same thing over and over then checking a book, the web, paperwork that came with the cam and degree wheel, hoping I'd have an a-ha moment and see what I'm doing wrong. But that ain't happening. I'm doing it right but still something is going wrong.
I'm going to try again tomorrow. Maybe.
One thing I don't like at all is the hinky extension on the indicator that I have to use. It's threaded but doesn't thread into the indicator so it can kind of flop around. I've felt a "click" and the indicator jumps about .001 - I think that is caused by the extension self-aligning with the indicator.
Whatever it is that's wrong is consistent - I wouldn't expect that if the extension was causing the problem.
FWIW I'm indicating off the top edge of the lifter, with the mag base on the deck between cyls 1 & 3.
I've been measuring .050 before and after max. Not sure if that matters, so long as I measure the same lift on both side of max, it should still work out since I'm trying to find the center between two points.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
I was actually hoping you'd give me the numbers from the cam card.
According to my entries from my cam card (which I can't find at the moment to verify), the camshaft has 4° of advance as designed. If your observed @ .050" opening/closing events jive with the card, let 'er rip.
Put a drop of super glue on the extension threads. It should hold the extension steady without acting like threadlocker.
According to my entries from my cam card (which I can't find at the moment to verify), the camshaft has 4° of advance as designed. If your observed @ .050" opening/closing events jive with the card, let 'er rip.
Put a drop of super glue on the extension threads. It should hold the extension steady without acting like threadlocker.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
The numbers are up there ^^^ I'm not sure if there are additional numbers on the cam card, but I don't think so. Haven't been to the garage yet today. I'll snap a photo when I go.
It says the ICL is 104 but my measurements say it is not.
I was hoping that if I used the other two crank slots the ICL would move accordingly, but it did not. At least that clued me in that I am doing something wrong. Maybe. The instructions talk about advance/retard in opposite terms, for example retarding moves the ICL -4* when actually retarding should move it in a positive direction.
I'll do the superglue thing before I start bashing my head against the wall again.
It says the ICL is 104 but my measurements say it is not.
I was hoping that if I used the other two crank slots the ICL would move accordingly, but it did not. At least that clued me in that I am doing something wrong. Maybe. The instructions talk about advance/retard in opposite terms, for example retarding moves the ICL -4* when actually retarding should move it in a positive direction.
I'll do the superglue thing before I start bashing my head against the wall again.