My 71 Duster work in progress

[Dr.Jass]

I missed this earlier:

The timing set I've got has 3 slots, 4* +/- at the crank = 2* camshaft so not good enough.

Everything is measured in crankshaft degrees, including what you're reading on the camshaft. "Advancing the cam 4°" means advancing it 4° at the crankshaft. Offset bushing and keys listed for 4° will move the camshaft itself 2°, which is 4° at the crank. Nothing is ever measured in camshaft degrees. That's why the degree wheel mounts to the crankshaft.

These are the opening/closing events to which I'm referring, as entered in my software for my Lunati roller cam. If I missed yours somewhere, my bad:




The cam card (shown for the above cam) should have them listed as such:




You'll notice that Lunati's card has specified that the cam has 4° of advance as part of the design. I.E., the cam is 4° advanced dot-to-dot on a production-style timing set (no advance/retard keyways).

Cam events @ .050" lift are speaking in valve lift. If your cam card assumes 1.5:1 rockers (which it does), that's only ~.033" at the lifter where you're measuring. So when degreeing the cam directly at the lifter, .033" is the lift number you'd want to see @ the opening/closing events listed on the cam card.

All this math fuckery is why I degreed my cam the second time with the heads installed. I made a dial-indicator base adapter that threaded into the valve-cover bolt hole and measured directly off the valve retainer. .582" is actually .582", rather than .388", and .050" lift is exactly that. I did not have any lash in the system during degreeing.

For the record, there's no law saying you have to work from the #1 intake lobe. If #3 or 6 or whatever's easier for setup, use it. Crank degrees is crank degrees, man. If you have the ECL number, you can work from that as well. Very silly question: You are taking your measurements on the second lifter back, correct? I don't mean to be insulting, but the lifter nearest the block bulkhead is #1 exhaust and you're getting results suspiciously close to what I expect the ECL number of that cam should be: 112° (using the ICL and LSA of the above cam example).

 

[b-body-bob]

For the record, there's no law saying you have to work from the #1 intake lobe. If #3 or 6 or whatever's easier for setup, use it. Crank degrees is crank degrees, man. If you have the ECL number, you can work from that as well. Very silly question: You are taking your measurements on the second lifter back, correct? I don't mean to be insulting, but the lifter nearest the block bulkhead is #1 exhaust and you're getting results suspiciously close to what I expect the ECL number of that cam should be: 112° (using the ICL and LSA of the above cam example).

You're not insulting, you're right. Doh! I even knew that and still did it wrong. I knew it was some sort of stupidity on my part.

Will take your notes above about the cam events on the card in consideration and go fix this damned thing. At least it only cost me a day.

 

[b-body-bob]

Two hours later ...

If it's so sensitive that having the indicator misaligned the tiniest bit, barely noticeable by eye, this is not a doable job at least not with the tools I've got.

I have seen 0.050 on the open side happen around 5-6*, where it should, and then the max lift happens at a random point between ~ 320 and 350 when it should be 337. So there's no need to even pay attention to what happens at .050 on the closing side because it ain't right either.

I also tried saying forget the reading, just go to max, set zero, and use .050 on either side of that to find the ICL. Of course that didn't work either.

I could go back out there, tweak it, and all at once the magic happens. Or, I could go spend another two hours futzing around with it and still not have it right.

Building enthusiasm for hobbyists to degree cams could be a ruse to sell tools. Wanna watch me burn another C note and waste another week?

Proform Parts 66843 Proform Cam Checker Tools | Summit Racing

Or just put the thing in dot to dot and fuggitaboutit.

Almost forgot ...

 

[Dr.Jass]

It sounds like you had the setup nailed earlier other than being on the wrong lobe. It also sounds like you might have a sticky dial indicator or your mag base is moving if your max lift is jumping around. Make sure the lifter, bore, lobe and the indicator's probe shaft and tip are completely clean of any lubrication, dirt, etc. (this is no time to be fighting break-in lube). A lot of lesser dial indicators do not work well when the probe shaft is side-loaded at the tip. I had this problem myself and bought a better dial indicator (I don't think the one in my kit's ever been out of the box). If you want some kind of lubricant at the probe tip, use something very light, like ATF, 3-in-1, or the lightest motor oil you have on hand. Ultra-Snot will actually create drag.

Do not work with the dial indicator's probe fully extended or anywhere near it. Assuming a 1.000"-travel indicator, you'll want the probe compressed at least .250"-.300" (just a good range, not critical) through its travel when the lifter's on the cam's base circle. If it's a 2" range, add an inch. Anywhere's OK as long as it doesn't bottom out before it hits .337". I actually set its height at/near max lift, close to the probe's bottom-out point. I move it up just a bit and now I know I can't bottom it. Then I rotate to the base circle, zero it, and work from there. The longer the probe, the harder it is to get repeatable results due to inherent stiction at the indicator's full extension and side-loading deflecting the probe shaft.

This is a picture taken whilst degreeing the roller cam in the Valiant. Check out how much of the probe's shaft is protruding from the top of the dial indicator with the lifter on the base circle (any lower and I'd hit the rocker!):




If none of that helps, try this: Zero your indicator while on the base circle of the cam. Lift the indicator's probe off the lobe and hold it while rotating the engine to 104° ATDC. Slowly let the probe release down to the lifter. What's you're number? Hopefully it's close to .337". Slowly rotate back and forth a few degrees to see if your highest point is indeed at 104°. If it is, you're good there. Lifting the probe again, rotate the engine backward until you're at 6°BTDC. You should show right around .033".

If that process still isn't giving you repeatable results, try running the dial indicator right on the cam lobe. You may need a probe extension for this, but you still want to be somewhere through the indicator's travel whilst on the base circle.

 

[b-body-bob]

OK I'll give that all a shot. I have been careful to not bottom or top out the indicator range.

I found one problem yesterday in that the back of the indicator wasn't tight or had loosened up as I used it. Another problem seems to be the tip is too big for the very edge of the lifter and the bore. I think it's either stopping against the block and/or slipping off the rounded tip. The tiny extension is smaller and would help with that, if I could get rid of the parallax errors. It's hard enough to get the indicator straight without putting that goofy thing in the equation.

The other day when I was measuring the wrong lobe, the extension was in there. I had less luck with it yesterday and I was able to get the indicator in place directly on the lifter once I was on the correct lobe, so I gave up on that.

 

[b-body-bob]

Finally success. I gave up on having the indicator on the lifter, stuck the extension back in and worked with it some and got it where nothing was interfering. I think what was going on is the indicator was hanging up on the block and not following the lifter all the way to the base circle, so everything after that was messed up.

All the numbers on the cam card check out on the intake side with the cam in straight up. On to the next headache. I think I'm going to pull the cam back out one more time and give it some more lube just to be sure.

Unsure if I need to do anything with the valve springs for break in or not. Edelbrock rates them at 120 on the seat and 310 open. That's a little above what I've seen recommended for spring pressure at break in.. This is the part # listed, yes it says Ford, no it doesn't matter, yes it seems like Edelbrock is fixated on Ford FE engines. It's a single spring and damper.

Sure Seat Valve Springs for Ford 429/460 V8 1969-1987

 

[Dr.Jass]

I don't think you need to pull it back out. Whatever lube you put on the cam bearings is still there, it just got smeared around a little. You can access the lobes easily enough through the block itself and the lifter bores.

 

[b-body-bob]

I was wondering if I could do that, but I knew if I took it back out I could

FWIW I rubbed the red permatex into lobes pretty good before installing it.

I broke out my intake and gasket set. The gasket fits the intake but of course it could use to be matched. I don't think it's worth the effort in this case, it's plenty good. For some reason there are 3 metal intake gaskets in the kit? I just set those aside for now. I guess those are for an iron intake.

 

[Dr.Jass]

I broke out my intake and gasket set. The gasket fits the intake but of course it could use to be matched.

Unless it's the rock-hard asbestos/titanium composite material my W2 gaskets were, it should be relatively easy to trim them with an X-Acto. Of course, there could be a metal layer in there which would make it less worth the effort.

Rest assured, any quoted numbers for HP made by manufacturers are with completely-optimized everything, including matched gaskets, machine work, etc. They're also probably corrected to 60°F ambient temps.

For some reason there are 3 metal intake gaskets in the kit? I just set those aside for now. I guess those are for an iron intake.

Maybe yes, maybe no. It may be a "shim" difference. Some intakes fit perfectly, others want thicker or thinner gaskets. I'd check to see which gaskets allow the intake to fit the best, and use those. If they're the steel ones, spray them with Permatex High-Tack red sealer.

Throw out the end seals now, so you're not tempted to try and use them. A bead of silicone is plenty and will not result in the port mismatch (and vacuum leak/oil suction) that seems almost inevitable when those seals are used.

 

[b-body-bob]

Unless it's the rock-hard asbestos/titanium composite material my W2 gaskets were, it should be relatively easy to trim them with an X-Acto. Of course, there could be a metal layer in there which would make it less worth the effort.

I meant matching the intake to the gasket.

 

[Dr.Jass]

Oh, yeah, no... if the gasket's larger, leave it alone.

 

[b-body-bob]

I pulled the intake and heads out of the boxes and gave them a looking over. It's definitely a single-spring and damper setup. I could see what looked like a piece of wire trapped in a valve, hiding behind the valve stem. I need to setup some kind of holding fixture so I can compress and maybe remove at least that spring to clean it out. It wouldn't hurt to compress each of the valves and clean the whole thing with brake cleaner.

Also, several of the 273 rockers hit the springs. The non-adjustable factory rockers do not. I may take the easy way out and use those and the stock pushrods, at least in the short term.

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

Oh my, I'm afraid to do the push rods & rockers myself for fear of screwing something up, I could never get through all the technobabble you guys just rattled off.
I thought I might learn something trying to follow, all I learned is don't ever try this yourself!

 

[Dr.Jass]

I pulled the intake and heads out of the boxes and gave them a looking over. It's definitely a single-spring and damper setup. I could see what looked like a piece of wire trapped in a valve, hiding behind the valve stem. I need to setup some kind of holding fixture so I can compress and maybe remove at least that spring to clean it out. It wouldn't hurt to compress each of the valves and clean the whole thing with brake cleaner.

Disassembling the heads entirely and giving them a thorough cleaning and inspection is not a bad idea at all. People make mistakes, and one that got past someone at Edelbrock could cost you dearly. If you do disassemble 'em, do it one at a time, reassembling the first before you disassemble the second. Keep track of what came from where and put everything back in its exact spot, particularly the valves.

Also, several of the 273 rockers hit the springs. The non-adjustable factory rockers do not. I may take the easy way out and use those and the stock pushrods, at least in the short term.

Not surprising, since I'm assuming the Edelbrock springs are either larger than the OE 1.437" units, or taller due to longer valves. It's not uncommon to have to grind a little clearance (or a hell of a lot of clearance) into the rocker to get it past aftermarket springs. I've seen Harland Sharps ground so far they hit the roller-bearing cages. The rockers are plenty strong. Just do a little at a time until the spring is no longer a problem.

 

[b-body-bob]

And now I know the Harbor Fright Large Valve Spring Compressor won't compress an automotive valve. It worked fine for the servos in a 727, but the handle's too short to compress a real spring.

Large Valve Spring Compressor

 

[Dr.Jass]

Don't feel too bad. Personal experience showed me a big Snap-On unit can't do 550lb+ roller springs without bending. I ended up with a ProForm 66832 which, if I'm honest, is still a little terrifying to use. It's not because the tool's junk, it's the pressures involved. I had one of the roller springs pop out while compressed with a different tool. I don't know if you saw that post, but it went all the way to the far wall (18' or so), bounced back and hit the wall behind me (24' distance from wall #1 and higher up on it) and landed more than halfway back to wall #1 after hitting wall #2. Two ricochets and a 50'+ flight plan. Had that spring gone in a different direction it would've broken bones. Realistically, the next step up is a gorilla of a pneumatic unit, and I'm not willing to spend that much. The inexpensive ones aren't rated that high.

 

[b-body-bob]

I've still got that hand-held screw job here somewhere, but I couldn't find it last night. I don't know if it'll do any better, but it worked with no problem on factory springs.

 

[b-body-bob]

Advance has this as a loaner tool here. It's worth a shot.

Powerbuilt Tools Kit 6, Valve Spring Compressor Kit

 

[Dr.Jass]

That's similar to the Snap-On one I bent on my W2 heads. It should work just fine for single springs, though, 310lb be damned.

 

[b-body-bob]

I picked it up on my lunch break so I'll know if it works soon enough.