My 71 Duster work in progress

you have any ideas of installing a 4-speed, you might want to see if he can drill the crank further so you don't have to lop off any input shafts. Not all cranks are drilled deeply enough.
Check.

I've also heard really good things about Oregon's regrinds, though I have no experience with them. One nice thing about a regrind, though: You know you're starting with a good cam core.
I had the same thought about regrinding the factory cam. I wonder how much wear is too much? I've got the 360 cam and an old Lunati big block cam that might be usable. I've also read about people having lifters refaced.

For right now I think all I need to know to get the heads started is it will be hyd FT and the max lift will be between .500 and .600, and a lot closer to 5 than 6
 
DODGE Edelbrock 2049 Edelbrock Total Power Package 417 HP Small Block Mopar Top-End Engine Kits | Summit Racing

If I use that kit I'm guaranteed to have 417 HP. The marketing info said so.

This is a pretty good discount (about 1/3 off) but I had trouble adding up the individual parts and coming up with the kit price.

Top end kit $2208 Mopar Chrysler SB 318 340 360 Hyd FT Cylinder Head Top End Engine Combo Kit

Heads 1190 a pair Mopar Chrysler SB 318 360 170cc 65cc Hydraulic Flat Assembled Cylinder Heads
Intake 324 Mopar Chrysler Dodge SB 318 340 360 MidRise Air Intake Manifold Satin
Rockers 334.20 (regular price) Mopar Chrysler SB 318 340 360 1.5 Ratio Aluminum Roller Rocker Arms & Shafts

1190+324+334 = 1848

I just noticed the heads in both the kit and separate say they oil through the pushrods.
 
I did not notice the "through pushrod" oiling. I'll have to take a look at mine and see if that's truly the case (my 48° said the same thing, but the passages are there). If they do in fact lack the passages, I'll simply add them. It's not a difficult procedure, since the main "passage" is actually the head-bolt hole. That's where the hole coming up from the deck surface and the hole coming down from the rocker stand intersect.
 
I still need to read the details on that again because the discounted package price leaves me with an expensive set of intake gaskets to explain.

Any opinions on whether I should paint it orange for 71 HP, or blue for 318?
 
Any opinions on whether I should paint it orange for 71 HP, or blue for 318?
I guess it depends on how stock or modified it's going to appear (aftermarket valve covers, painted v. raw intake, etc.) and if you have a serious preference yourself. I really like the I-H red I used on the W2 engine (Rust-Oleum 209717), which isn't technically correct for 1969 but some early cars did have red 340s. Mine's a low sequence, so I took a little artistic license. Another reason is that my 340 Six Pack will be Corporate Blue, as a '73 340 be, and my 440 Six Pack will almost certainly be Hemi Orange. That red really pops, though. Your car, your choice... you could even go with whatever you think matches the exterior color better.

I filled out a form on the Howards cam site and got a human reply recommending to use CL710031-12.

Hydraulic Flat Tappet Street Force 2 Camshaft; 1964 - 2003 Chrysler 273, 340, 360 1500 to 5000 Howards Cams 710031-12 | Howards Cams
That's a pretty mild cam--milder than you expected, I'm sure. That's very often the case. Would I be looking into something else for your use case? Nope. If you're curious fill out another sheet for, or call, a different grinder and give them the information you gave Howards verbatim. I'm betting you'll get similar numbers. You don't need a ton of cam for a good-flowing top end to make power, and the lack of silliness here points at a solid, reliable engine you won't have to think about in terms of valvetrain durability. Everybody wants to over-cam--if you ask the question in a forum, or Dave Hughes, you'll be told repeatedly that's too small. It's not. Remember, the bigger the cam, the higher you'll need to spin it to make optimum power. I'll also take this opportunity to remind you that my Pontiac 400 ran high 12s in a much-heavier car on a hydraulic flat-tappet cam with only .454" lift and not a ton more advertised duration (292°).
You told 'em what you wanted, they answered. I'd run it.
 
I kind of liked the random Howard's cam you mentioned earlier. More lift, just a little more duration but still not a shit ton of it. The powerband is 1800 to 5800, and is 1500-5000 on the recommended cam.

I'm hoping to run factory valve covers but am losing hope after soaking and scrubbing them over the last several weeks. The simple green has started peeling the paint but there's still crud between the valve cover and the baffle.
 
I kind of liked the random Howard's cam you mentioned earlier. More lift, just a little more duration but still not a shit ton of it. The powerband is 1800 to 5800, and is 1500-5000 on the recommended cam.
Was that the 267°/277° .505" hydraulic cam? Not really that random; I actually have that cam. It was intended for my turbo project at one point, but I then realized the LSA wasn't really what I wanted--too narrow. One of the reasons I chose it was that it's marked in their catalog as having its rate of lift optimized for Mopar's large-diameter lifters.

I'm hangin' with @68R/T this weekend (whilst not roaming the swap grounds) so I don't have the simulation at hand, but I can look at it again next week and see how the two compare in the same engine.
 
FWIW I checked the Edelbrock top end kit price and it doesn't add up either.

Also another oddity I found on the Speedmaster heads

"
HEAD BOLTS / STUDS
For the PCE281.1776 4-cyl. head, use ARP #241-3701 (bolts) or #241-4701 (studs), and follow ARP's recommended torque values. Also, make sure you follow the OEM torque sequence! For the PCE281.1728, PCE281.1731 and PCE281.1733 use Speedmaster head stud kit PCE279.1018. Torque to 65lbs. using high pressure Moly lube on the threads and under the heads. The Arp #'s for the Big Block 440 heads are #145-3609 (bolts) and #145-4206 (studs) For the Small Block Chrysler heads, use Speedmaster PCE279.1017 head stud kit and torque the heads to 65lbs with Moly Lube."

The part number for the bare head is PCE281.1654 so based on that they recommend studs only.

There are also photos of them bolted to LA blocks all over the place so they can't be strictly pushrod oiling.
img_20200531_140027-jpg.1715597537


Bad docs can be worse than no docs
 
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The part number for the bare head is PCE281.1654 so based on that they recommend studs only.
I have the PCE281.1654s, but I didn't buy any studs or bolts for them. I'm sure it's a length issue more than anything else, not an actual need for studs (although they do clamp better). I have no problem using studs, but in an A-body it's a nightmare to remove the LH head with studs. The easiest way is to just pull all the studs, but the ARPs like to strip the internal hex when one attempts it. Ax me how I know.

There are also photos of them bolted to LA blocks all over the place so they can't be strictly pushrod oiling.
Unless you've got a set of NOS ones from the late 1960s or early '70s, virtually every Mopar lifter has oiling provisions. The reason is because the AMC V8 uses the same lifters and is pushrod-oiled. That's all good and fine, but not all rockers are designed to push oil into the shaft area from the pushrod socket. This is why I made mention of drilling the oil passages if they're not present. It seems an easier, factory-engineered solution.

Bad docs can be worse than no docs
Agreed. My 15° heads "requires pushrod oiling" and "cannot be used with standard W2 rockers" because of it--T&D or Jesel only. Imagine my disappointment at having heads that would cost a fortune to actually use. Well, the machinist at Chrysler didn't get the memo, and the oiling passages are present on both heads, so unless there's some voodoo magic happening there, I can't think of any reason they won't work as I currently have 'em configured--59° block, shaft oiling, standard MP rockers and all.

I need to sniff around those heads a little better when I get the chance.
 
I put in the big order at the machine shop yesterday since he is matching Summit's price, I've gotta spend the money either way so I might as well let him wet his beak.

Parts should start coming in this week, and once that starts I have to drop off the balancer and wait. Oh yeah, and pay for the parts.

I went with Eddie heads with the primary reason being they're available and Speedmaster CNCs aren't.

It's going to end up costing nearly as much as a crate engine. Well, not really, but it's still expensive to build anything.
 
I put in the big order at the machine shop yesterday since he is matching Summit's price, I've gotta spend the money either way so I might as well let him wet his beak.
I'm willing to bet this will light a fire under his ass. I'd be hesitant to pay for everything upfront because paid stuff sometimes doesn't move. "Well, I've already got the money... I can work on it whenever."

That being said, paid or not he probably doesn't want to sit around on a bunch of Mopar parts either.
 
Yeah I hope gets him think that he needs to get this done because this guy spent a bunch of money with me.

Once the parts come in I'll go up and see for myself where it stands.

He commented several times about how much the parts cost. He mentioned the $400 price for a set of pistons like his eyes were bugging out.

His quick back of the napkin figures on the CR had it just a tad over 10:1 with the H116CPs. He said he expects the piston will be in the hole .015.

Also, I submitted a cam request form at Lunati's web site to see if they come up with anything different.
 
One of the reasons I emphasize calling instead of e-mailing is because a lot can be learned in a conversation. They ask questions not on the form, and you might ask a few of your own. For instance, the fella at Lunati learned that "streetable" to me is nothing like downtown Chicago at 5:15PM. That gave him a little more freedom to be aggressive. Also, they're probably more likely to believe you'll buy a camshaft if you take the time on the phone.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Howards' cam choice for your car a'tall, mind you, but they might've gotten a little more aggressive had you spoken with them. It pays to play it safe for those guys; I truly doubt you would hate the 710031-12 but the one I have seems to build significantly more power and torque, both average and peak, than the split-pattern they chose... but, most of the difference is above 4,800RPM. Between peak HP and 6,000RPM, the smaller cam loses 22 horses, where the big boy only loses 9. Below 4,000RPM the torque is essentially a wash, but at and above that number the 711451-08 walks away and never looks back. This is always the case with larger camshafts: You have to spin to win. There's actually a slightly-larger difference; read the notes below. Interestingly, in this case, you're giving up very little on the low end for the substantial upper-RPM gains. The flip side of that is more aggressive valvetrain movement in that area. I don't consider either camshaft wild enough for that to be a serious concern, honestly.

Another consideration is your willingness to use those gains. Some guys put a lot of stock into the factory redline, which on a stock 360's best day was 5,000RPM. They're not comfortable above that number. I'm not one of those guys; I've pushed a stock E58 well beyond that with a little creative tuning. If anything beyond 5,000-5,500RPM is out of your comfort zone, there's little point in getting the larger cam. Looking at the curve the 711451-08 would be pulling like a freight train beyond your happy place. It's really hard to convince yourself to leave the party just when you're having the best time. The 710031-12 is tapering off pretty quickly at that point, so it'll remind you to shift where you like to if you're doing so by ear.

Now, on to the graphs and charts.

There are a few things I'd like to note about what follows:
  • "Valiant Dumper 3" has the Howards camshaft I own. "Valiant Dumper 360 6:08PM" is Howards' recommendation.
  • The modeled engine was a "stock" 3.58"-stroke shortblock at 4.030" bore.
  • I did not research ports. They're ported J-head flow numbers, better than stock Ed L. Brocks.
  • Intake: 750CFM carb on the program's generic single-plane intake.
  • Exhaust: 1-5/8" long-tube headers with low-restriction mufflers (I used DynoMax flow numbers).
  • Rocker-arm ratio was 1.5:1.
  • Compression was 9.72:1, which is where my low-effort 360 landed. It's a pain to change, so I left it.
  • I did not model valvetrain losses, which are significant in an LA engine due to pushrod angles and worse yet on a Magnum due to rickety, flexible-flyer rocker mounting.
  • I forgot to change the ramp profile when I entered the 710031-12 cam file. It is not optimized for large-diameter lifters like the 711451-08. Changing that had little effect on the averages, but there was a minor yet noticeable increase in torque between 2,000-3,600RPM. It slightly flattened the HP curve at peak with no loss--it hit peak a tick earlier and maintained it to 5K--which was surprising. Regardless, above 3,600 the divergence was even greater in favor of the larger cam. Spin to win, remember?
  • Increasing total timing from 34° to 36° did virtually nothing except raise the knock index. Maximum survivable timing is not always the best timing.
  • These are not figures to wave around at your friends as gospel. This is a simulation, and while the software I'm using is the best available, it is still modeling software. The point of this exercise was a camshaft comparison, not hard numbers. There is no replacement for an actual dyno sheet and/or timeslips.
  • Actual intended use for the car is far more important than ultimate numbers. The figures are positively bewitching on my W2 engine, but few would want to drive it to work daily.
  • I am neither a camshaft engineer nor a guy who makes cam recommendations. Howards gave you a recommendation that I have no doubt would make you happy. It would be a better car for ice-cream runs with B-body-babe, but the larger cam is a party animal above 4K--and that's my kind of party.
  • If you're reading this and are not @b-body-bob, don't ask me to do this shit for you. It's time-consuming--never mind the hour-plus I have in making everything appear in one image--and rather tedious. If I hadn't had an engine already modeled that's so similar to Bob's, I wouldn't have done this.
Without further ado, here you go Mr. Robert:

BobDyno-1.jpg
 
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Muchos gracias on Cinco de Mayo.

Even down at 5250 it's +30 on both.

I wind that stupid 400 up to 6000. Not often. but have done.

I wouldn't be spending all this 4 speed money if I didn't want to winder up.

I agree the conservative recommendation was the right one without being able to color outside the lines of the questionnaire.

Also, they replied, Lunati did not and that is info.

The sticky widget here is this from Summit:
Ships Directly From Supplier
Estimated Ship Date: Jul 20, 2023
But really, I don't even have the block back. Or the parts. I just need to go ahead and make it happen.

Next question: lifters

Howards Cams Performance Hydraulic Lifters 91711​

DODGE Howards Cams 91711 Howards Cams Performance Hydraulic Lifters | Summit Racing
 
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Next question: lifters

Howards Cams Performance Hydraulic Lifters 91711​

DODGE Howards Cams 91711 Howards Cams Performance Hydraulic Lifters | Summit Racing
This is confusing, Jeg's is $50 less than Summit for the lifters
Howards Cams 91711: Performance Hydraulic Flat Tappet Lifter Set AMC V8 304-401 - JEGS

The cam is $30 less
Howards Cams 711451-08: 1964 - 2003 CHRYSLER 273 - JEGS

Seems like somebody needs to update the website or something.

I wonder if Jeg's would have to stand by that price?
 
Muchos gracias on Cinco de Mayo.
You're very welcome.

Even down at 5250 it's +30 on both.

I wind that stupid 400 up to 6000. Not often. but have done.

I wouldn't be spending all this 4 speed money if I didn't want to winder up.

I agree the conservative recommendation was the right one without being able to color outside the lines of the questionnaire.
I wasn't sure whether the stick was a go--I sorta thought She-bob had put the kibosh on the manual.

The sticky widget here is this from Summit:
Ships Directly From Supplier
Estimated Ship Date: Jul 20, 2023
But really, I don't even have the block back. Or the parts. I just need to go ahead and make it happen.
If push comes to shove, I can ship you mine and you just replace it when you get one. I'm at least two engines away from installing it. The Challenger's 340 is first in line, then probably another 340 after that since I may need to build one for the person with my old 340. I might do the 360 after that, or I may do the 440. Either way, that cam will be sitting on a shelf for at least a year anyhow.

For whatever it's worth, when I bought the Howards cam I bought two sets of on-sale EngineTech lifters. The one cam failure I have had was the result of oiling problems during the break-in procedure, not due to lifters, so I ran with it. Unless something's changed dramatically in the last 15 years or so, everyone's hydraulic lifters came from the same factory. When Johnson Lifter went tits-up, nobody had lifters because they were all rebranding the Johnson OE replacement as their own. The only exception was Rhoads' "variable duration" lifters, which may have been reworked Johnson parts. Rhoads lifters work, but they're noisy... like, misadjusted solid-lifter noisy, especially at idle.
Regardless, even Melling's "high performance" lifters are only about $106+shipping from Rock. I don't know what comprises a "high performance" lifter, of course. EngineTech's OE-replacement lifters are under $50/set from the same source, and Melling's equivalent are less than $70 if the name counts (Melling and Sealed Power are definitely the same lifter). Yeah, I'm actually quoting Rock here rather than my usual "buy local" mantra. Honestly, Rock sells lifters for less than I can get them from my own warehouse. With the decline of machine shops, parts stores/chains aren't enamored with selling engine hard parts anymore. Also, I've heard of a slew of returned lifters that keep popping up as new, at least at O'Reilly (this isn't a local thing).

Full disclosure: I have not yet used any of the EngineTech lifters, so I can't speak to their durability. I just had (and still have) the sneaking suspicion they're the same parts as everyone else's.
 
This is confusing, Jeg's is $50 less than Summit for the lifters
Howards Cams 91711: Performance Hydraulic Flat Tappet Lifter Set AMC V8 304-401 - JEGS

The cam is $30 less
Howards Cams 711451-08: 1964 - 2003 CHRYSLER 273 - JEGS

Seems like somebody needs to update the website or something.

I wonder if Jeg's would have to stand by that price?
Is Summit throwing down for the shipping, where Jeg's does not? Yeah, it's still a dramatic price difference but that might be part of it.

As far as I'm aware, if you order it at that price they can't/won't come back on you for more money. Well, without at least asking you if that's OK. You can insist on getting the advertised price; there are laws regarding this. If they're worth a damn as a retailer, they'll take the hit as a lesson learned and fix the site in response... "Bob gets it for this price, and he's the last one that will."
 
I don't know what comprises a "high performance" lifter, of course
The only thing I've seen mentioned is a difference in the spring/clip that holds the piston in. Some have a wire, some have an e-clip or similar.

It's almost a game trying to find some advantage to keep the flat lobe demon away.

I would've gone with a roller anyway but with double the cost for parts + hours of machine work to make it happen, I decided to roll the dice.

Is Summit throwing down for the shipping, where Jeg's does not? Yeah, it's still a dramatic price difference but that might be part of it.
Jeg's is free shipping over $200, which a cam/lifter set would be. Actually the cam alone is over $200.

The lifters are in stock and shipping today so there is some logic in thinking those are likely old stock from the last time they updated their prices.

Jeg's has a note:
Estimated to ship direct from manufacturer on 05/10/23, pending manufacturer availability.

So I think that's their loophole - the manufacturer doesn't have them available at that price.
 

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