My 71 Duster work in progress

I have bags of misc hardware that either came loose with the car or were picked up just laying around as I did the strip down & parts clean up I hope as I put thing together I will find most of there homes, haven't opened up the engine yet hope there's none in there!
I found it handy that all the bolt "sets" on this engine teardown differ in the number, so I can just count how many I have and I know what they're for.
They sure look like rod nuts.
I forgot to look at the bearings to see if any are oversized. I still don't think the engine was ever apart though. I've still got the bearings in a recycling pile but I'll find out soon enough when the machine shop is done with the initial evaluation.
 
That cam sounds like it would gut your dynamic compression rather than raise it. As I mentioned, I'd call a manufacturer and get a recommendation. Hughes isn't a manufacturer, and based on the multiple mistakes made on my friend's 440, I wouldn't (and don't) trust their tech advice.
I was poking around and found a compression calculator for both static and dynamic CR. Compression Ratio Calculator (Static and Dynamic)

Based on a stock bore/stroke 360, zero deck, 5cc dome, 65cc chamber, the static CR is 10.47. Using the Hughes whiplash cam Intake closing point of 33* and with a stock rod length of 6.123, the dynamic CR is 9.9.

I found a cam card for a purple shaft .509 with intake closing at 74* and the dynamic CR is 7.7. The 590 solid closes at 64.9 so it's a little better at 8.3.

I asked about the top end kit of a stock build on FB yesterday, it is using a Comp Xtreme Energy 224/230, a fairly mild cam and there the intake closes at 60 giving a dynamic CR of 8.642 so even that is way below the Hughes.
 
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OK, using the same calculator and your given numbers I come up with a static compression ratio of 11.832:1. That's with a .042" compressed gasket with a 4.100" gasket bore. Are you aware that a piston dome is indicated by a negative number on that calculator? Entering "5cc" for piston volume indicates 5cc valve reliefs (or some other crown void like a dish), which then gets me very close to your number (10.462). With a realistic 71cc chamber (probably very close to what you have), 5cc valve reliefs, and zero deck, I get 9.8:1 static. Depending on camshaft, you'd be in the 7s dynamically.

At your posted 9.8:1 dynamic compression, the engine will detonate itself to pieces during cam break-in unless you run octane closer to 120 than 100. A static calculator is not an accurate way to get such a number. I don't trust online calculators for stuff like that, since I don't know what constants they're using in their equations, and they don't account for sub-.050" flow. A dedicated engine analyzer program is far more accurate. You have to buy those. The results of either will reflect your initial investment.

Do you actually have zero-deck 360 pistons with a 5cc dome? Are you having the block machined down to get to zero deck or just assuming you'll have it? With a stock-stroke crank and perfect 9.600" (blueprint) deck height, you'll need pistons with a 1.687" compression height to achieve zero deck. Most production decks are higher than blueprint by .010-.020, and most factory compression ratios are much lower than advertised. A stock '73-up 360 is actually only ~7.6:1, not accounting for any additional deck height. OE '73-up 360 pistons have a 1.567" compression height (.111" down the hole at TDC on 9.600") and a 7.5cc dish. I didn't dive very deeply, but I couldn't find any zero-deck flat-top pistons for stock-stroke 360s. The closest I found was 1.675", which is .012" down from blueprint deck at TDC, and drops the compression by only .25:1 (to 9.54:1) from being zero-deck. Not really worth the extra machining cost to the block.

When you refer to a 65cc chamber, I assume you're talking aftermarket heads? I wouldn't trust the heads that came on it to withstand the almost-.035" cut to get the chamber that small. They'll work until they warp, that is. The decks aren't super thick and there are only 10 head bolts. If you're thinking about using pistons with a quench pad, you'll want to trial-fit and measure everything before you start milling the heads. A .035" cut may have the piston hitting the head.

For your posted combination, I came up with 8.32:1 dynamic using the Hughes SMC2336AL (the one in the video) specs and 5cc valve reliefs: "You're listening to W-B-O-B, your station for detonation!" It's a little better with alloy heads, but it'll still knock like mad with any kind of decent curve in it. Since I'm guessing the budget calls for hypereutectic pistons, this would absolutely result in separated piston tops or lots of aluminum rubble in the oil pan. With a 5cc dome, dynamic rises to 9.3 and the knock index is essentially off the charts: 2.0 is considered "very likely"; your "dome" combo peaks near double that and averages better than 3.0 for almost the entire RPM range in which you'll run. That's simulated on 92 octane gas, too, not cheap 87.

You're starting to manifest some champagne tastes here, Robert. I guess I need clarification as to whether you're building a high-effort ripper or an inexpensive, fun-to-drive street engine. If you want the most from the parts you're installing, expect to invest well over $1,000 before you buy the first part (machine work). Once you do that, inexpensive parts aren't worth the risk. If you and your B-body-boo just want to cruise and squirt the throttle now and again for a thrill, you can spend a lot less.

I've got one of each on the stand right now: The overkill 340 for my Challenger and a 360 I'm assembling inexpensively just in case I decide to sell something. I may not want to let a 340 leave. 😆
 
I was just curious if the Hughes cam really increased dynamic CR or not, and I just pulled numbers to check that, not with the intention of using them. I took the dome numbers from a random 360 piston. KB-107 maybe? I don't remember. 65cc is for Edelbrock heads. FWIW I checked the calculator because I've seen disputes over what positive and negative domes means, so I checked the calculator with both positive and negative numbers and confirmed a negative dome reduces the CR.

The block hasn't had anything done to it yet - still haven't heard back from the machinist, that's due next week. He mentioned that small block heads tend to wear the guides out so if it needs those, it starts getting to where I should just put the money toward new heads. I've got that .020 cut you mentioned in an earlier post in mind if I don't replace them.

I run 92 in my GTI so I'm used to big prices but I get your point. I'm guessing you have software that simulates the engine to come up with the knock index over the RPM range. Neat.

I'm looking for an engine that will put out 400 HP or better, and sound like it's going to rip your face off. With a 4-speed and 3.91s that seems appropriate. I'd call that a fun to drive street engine. From what I read, with better compression and breathing it's not hard to get 400 HP out of a 360. The local track is now a cornfield so the car won't see any track time worth mentioning. I don't want to end up with a low-compression slug - I've already go that with the 400.

FWIW the old blue gTx came with a 440 and KB pistons. It didn't cut the head off the piston but they were beat all to hell from detonation. I don't want that for sure. I was thinking the easy way out would be to duplicate a magazine build.

The thing I keep thinking about is breaking it in. I wish I had a way to fire it up and run it in outside the car so if the cam goes south I don't have to pull it out again. but short of rigging it up on a k-frame that costs way too much for one-or-two uses. It doesn't help that I'm in the middle of a quiet neighborhood, so I will also need to rig mufflers up - not a big deal to do that though.

Lots of info up there as always, I definitely appreciate it. I've bolted engines together before, but never tried to science them out.

I let a good 340 go and have regretted it ever since. It's sitting under a bench at the $300 grille guy's place and he refuses to even talk about selling it. I wasn't about to make any stupid offers, but he would've turned them down anyway "I'm going to use it some day"
 
I have a 360 on the stand I'm building solely as a tosser. It'll probably sit there assembled until I decide to sell something and don't want one of my other engines to leave. It's a clean block, good at STD. I could just slap it back together stock and call it good, but I want it to be a decent engine in case I need it at some point.
So, you could say I have a vested interest in what you're doing to some extent. I'm just doing it on the lowest budget with which I'm comfortable.

I'm foregoing all the expensive machine work based on its budget nature. For something I wanted to keep I'd definitely get the block decked (to 9.58"-9.600") and have the boring done with deck plates at the very least. The 340 block for my Challenger is fully blueprinted; that's a four-digit expenditure before even buying the first part.

My shortblock recipe is pretty simple: I'm using stock 340 rods because I have them and I don't have to press pins. I probably won't bother resizing them; if I do I may go ahead and use the press-fit 360 rods since they'd already be at the machine shop. The pistons are Speed Pro H116CPs, which have a compression height of 1.670". At TDC on a "perfect" 9.600" deck height, they're .012" down the hole. As much as I detest hypereutectic pistons, the price was right and this engine isn't a darling to me. If I didn't have a dozen other more important engines, I'd have bought forged (SRP forged are .018" down the hole, if memory serves).
Anyhow, I know I don't have a 9.600" deck--it's taller, almost without question. I'll measure the pistons at TDC once the block is assembled, which will give me a milling number for the heads, if any (I'd rather not pay for that, though I will have them resurfaced). For a slap-together, I'd be OK anywhere over 9:1 and quite happy at/above 9.5:1. The crank is gorgeous so it's not getting machined. I have .001" under bearings; I'll measure with those and standard and use the better clearance.
Using the pistons I've got and your calculator (which I like), I ran some variations. Worst-case scenario with those pistons would be finding the deck is, say, 9.625" (.037" down @ TDC) and the chambers (open, probably use smog heads) are 72cc. Using a .042" gasket, I'd end up with 8.84:1. Far better than stock, but I want more. Simply resurfacing the heads should drop the chamber by 1cc. That and a Mr. Gasket .027" head gasket gets me up to 9.24:1. In my case, success! It'll live forever with 34° total on garbage pump fuel. If the deck height is a more-realistic 9.615", I'm closer to 9.5:1--approaching "joy" territory.

Here's what you'll want to remember: If you build it for higher static compression, you don't need (or even want) a cam that maximizes dynamic compression. You'll simply land in detonation territory. Spark timing is more important than compression. If you've got an 8.2:1 dynamic CR but can't run it higher than 29° total without spark knock, you lose. It'd have more power on 7.2:1 DCR and 34° timing, period.

Because I was bored last night (the dog didn't feel like talking) I ran some rough simulations on the following engine: 68cc heads, .042" gasket, 9.600" deck height. Static CR was 9.75:1. I used generic X/J/308-type flow numbers with 2.02" valves and a basic dual-plane intake. Headers, 700CFM carb, and 34° of timing, all in by 2,700RPM. Simulated exhaust was 1-5/8"-primary headers into high-flow mufflers. I ran several similar hydraulic cams I either own or for which I have accurate card info through the simulation, along with the Whiplash in the video you posted.
The Whiplash was the HP winner--by a whopping 2HP.
However, it lost to the Lunati 10200702 Voodoo and Howards 711451-08 on average HP, average torque, and peak torque. More importantly, the Lunati and Howards both did the job with lower DCR, knock index, and lift, as well as less duration. The Lunati also did all of it at a slightly-lower RPM, probably since it has a much wider LSA (112° v. 107°). The wider LSA also translates into better cruise economy, with the Lunati showing dramatically better BSFC in that RPM range. The Howards cam is very nearly the Lunati's equal in overall performance, but the Voodoo does show a slight edge. I'm not surprised, since the Voodoo line consists of former Ultradyne grinds. Both are fast-ramp designs, a.k.a. "real Chrysler cams".
The Whiplash barely beat the long-gone Crane 698301, which is a design from the 1970s that I happen to have lying around. The difference was 3HP peak and 1lb/ft peak, 4HP and 5lb/ft average. The Crane has slightly-lower @ .050" numbers than the Whiplash (a degree or two) but only .467"/.494" lift. It had the lowest DCR, knock index, and lift of the bunch. It also has the widest LSA @ 114°, so it's more efficient at low RPM. The discontinued Crane and the Lunati will both clear factory valve guides.
All of the cams I modeled showed peak HP at 5,500RPM or less. Sweet. Peak torque hovered between 3,750 and 4,000, meaning a modern 3,800-stall converter and 3.91 gears would be a blast.
"Just for fun" side simulation: The tiny MP P4528346 solid-lifter shaft (276°/.490") clobbered all of them in every department, though the Crane had a slightly-lower DCR.

Since these were simply a rough simulations, the peak numbers aren't important (and are probably optimistic). It's how the cams compare on a realistic Bob/Jass shortblock. By no means am I recommending a cam--I still suggest you call a company that engineers cams for that (not one has "hug" in their name). Testing with even larger cams for which I have specs pushed the peak numbers up the RPM scale without dramatically increasing average numbers. That tells me it's probably near the limit of head flow.

My takeaway? The Whiplash is not a particularly well-designed camshaft. Every other cam requires less-violent valvetrain motion and is less likely to detonate, yet performs better overall. Do they sound as gnarly? Maybe not, but I don't build engines for sound, either. I'd probably be calling Lunati or Howards for a recommendation. I certainly would not call an engine builder who can't properly install an RB rear main seal and doesn't know the intake side of the head requires attention after milling the deck surface. Hughes is all hype; there are better options.

I have both the old Crane and the Howards cams lying around. Neither of their intended engines exists anymore, so I may as well use 'em up. The Crane doesn't require guide clearancing, but the choppier idle of the Howards might help sell a car. I don't know which I'll use, but it'll be one of those two. I'm not buying another cam just for this half-assery!
 
Hopefully I will hear from the machinist this week then I'll know where it's heading.

I read the Speed Pro hyper pistons don't need fitted rings because the ring height is lower than the K-Bs. You still have to check the gaps just to be sure but that should save some time.

I spent the weekend cleaning stuff. I'm unsure what will be reused so I cleaned it all. Plus it's easier to store things that aren't grimy. I was hoping to reuse the valve covers but they're coked up pretty bad and there's no way to get between the valve cover and the big baffles on them to clean it out. I don't want that crud in my new engine so I've got a pair of Moroso gold covers that I'm hoping to use.

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I got a decent deal on an old crusty SB alu bellhousing and dust cover the other day, do I'm making progress on that front. It won't be long before I'll need to open the 833 up to check it out.
 
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Not perfect but better than the ones that came with the 360.

I'm confused what I'm supposed to run in those holes too - breathers? In both of them? The grommet in both is closed off. A breather will fit in the hole but it won't push all the way in with them like that.

I figure them to be leak-prone, they're kind of flimsy.

I really wish I had a set of 273 HP valve covers but I'm not paying up for those.
 
Hey something I can understand, the guy who was going to do my engine has a lot of stock (orig.) parts laying around hoping to get valve covers & oil pan from him, see what else he has laying around & willing to sell.
 
Like I pointed out above, you'll never get a factory baffled valve cover cleaned up. That baked on mess is there forever without the ability to get to it with a wire brush or something.
 
I'll wait & see how nasty the parts are, I like the black mopar ones, but trying to go as original as possible.
They would also work with my black hardware theme!
 
Please don't put these on it - too tacky for me although you'd have the black to go with the hardware and the blue to match the car.


mopar-stamped-steel-valve-cover-set-33.png

This would be an alternative to the Moroso covers if I can't figure out what breather/cap to run, but it looks to me that they've got the same setup - two holes, no place for a cap.

mopar-performance-chrome-valve-covers-76.png
 
I figure them to be leak-prone, they're kind of flimsy.
I used Edelbrock valve cover gaskets on my W2 heads. I believe they're part #7592. Upon first inspection, I wasn't real happy with them. They're very stiff which I didn't like. I used silicone between the valve covers and the gaskets, and nothing between the gasket and head. I installed them on with the bolts just finger-tight to let the sealant vulcanize, hoping the gaskets would stay flat. I did not torque them until I knew the sealant was fully cured.

Since break-in I've had the valve covers off and back on the engine three times, still glued to the valve cover. Upon reinstallation, I simply set the covers back on and re-torqued the bolts. There is no sealant on the head side to this day. I've literally done nothing to reseal them. They have never leaked a drop, and my attitude has changed greatly toward them in the meantime.

For something like those flimsy aluminum covers, they seem like an ideal option. They don't compress, which means unless you're one of those guys that goes full retard on VC bolts, you won't likely warp the flanges tightening the covers. In this case, I think they'd be much better than the Moroso silicone-rubber jobs on a steel backing. Silicone rubber compresses quite easily.

I'm confused what I'm supposed to run in those holes too - breathers? In both of them? The grommet in both is closed off. A breather will fit in the hole but it won't push all the way in with them like that.
Breather in passenger's side, PCV on the driver's. Mr. Gasket sells baffled grommets, but you may be able to modify those into something similar.

I really wish I had a set of 273 HP valve covers but I'm not paying up for those.
You think they're expensive to buy? I recently got an estimate from Phoenix Specialty Coatings to have mine redone. Restoring a set that's already in pretty good shape starts @ $1,300--but she can't give a firm estimate without them in-hand. Yowza.
 
Restoring a set that's already in pretty good shape starts @ $1,300--but she can't give a firm estimate without them in-hand. Yowza.
Sounds like that isn't a happening thing.

Cast aluminum runs $250 and up. I saw a re-release of the Direct Connection cast parts somewhere, might be big block only. But $250? Not at this point, no thanks.

AMD has some years of small block repop parts, but even those are $200.
PCV on the driver's
I considered that and thought it would take one helluva big PCV valve :D
 
I almost forgot - I had a 340 with some sort of solid gray gaskets on it- Reusable, didn't compress much, sealed well. I don't know what they were because they came with. I plan to try to find something similar no matter what covers I put on it.

Also, I try to always run studs because it's so much nicer than having to glue the gaskets to the valve cover.
 
I almost forgot - I had a 340 with some sort of solid gray gaskets on it- Reusable, didn't compress much, sealed well. I don't know what they were because they came with. I plan to try to find something similar no matter what covers I put on it.
Those sound like the Edelbrocks.

Also, I try to always run studs because it's so much nicer than having to glue the gaskets to the valve cover.
When I'm using old, beat-up valve covers I prefer to glue the gaskets (not to the heads, though). The flanges are usually dinged, warped, pinched from overtightening or otherwise deformed. Those thin aluminum Moroso (and DC blue) valve covers are the worst-case scenario for that. Oil usually leaks between the gasket and the cover.
The valve covers on my Valiant are factory parts older than me, but with those Edelbrock gaskets they haven't even seeped. The gaskets are dry on the head surface; I haven't even had to wipe them down.
 
More like these but I could swear I saw them somewhere with mopar on the top? black valve covers.png
But the ones you showed actually do go with my theme quite well!
At mid 300's I think I'll be painting an old set good ole chrysler blue!
 
Sounds like that isn't a happening thing.
Maybe if I was doing a 1,000-point '67 Barracuda 273HP/4-speed I'd consider it. To me, there's no other 273-powered A-body that warrants such expense.

Cast aluminum runs $250 and up. I saw a re-release of the Direct Connection cast parts somewhere, might be big block only. But $250? Not at this point, no thanks.
I have a few sets of cast aluminum covers. I'm glad I don't have to buy them now. M/T ones can still be had realtively inexpensively, though. They tend to crack pretty easily, particularly big-block versions. The fabricated valve covers aren't bad. I'm not in love with the look, but the flange is thick aluminum and the bolt heads use the entire side of the valve cover as a load equalizer.

Mancini Racing apparently managed to reproduce the black wrinkle LA covers as long as you don't mind the $300 price tag. I don't like those enough to pay half that. They also sell the black wrinke/blue logo covers Bob posted for $97+shipping. Those are $29 steel covers with an expensive paint job, most of that expense being licensing fees.

AMD has some years of small block repop parts, but even those are $200.
I have inside information that the AMD covers are really poor reproductions, and are even subpar functionally. It's very easy to spot the 340 repros when you know what the originals look like. The AMD covers are over-stamped, with the originals' subtle details not being subtle at all.

If you think the repros and cast alloy are expensive, you should really price out a set of original '70 340 covers. Kev recently bargained a dented set with a crack down to $375 from its $450 ask.
 
I just wish there was a way to clean the factory parts.

I've got a couple pairs of Cal Custom covers, but they're for a big block.

To me, there's no other 273-powered A-body that warrants such expense.
I had a decent 67 Dart GT years ago that I let go down the road in favor of a Duster. A previous owner put a 509 cam and big tube headers on it. Sounded like a pro-stocker when/if you could get it to run. I didn't get to the point of trying to fix that before letting it go. Anyway it still had the original ultra-strong 7-1/4 rear end which tells you something about how much torque those itty bitty motors put out.
 
I just wish there was a way to clean the factory parts.
There is, but B-body-babe would butcher Bob and bury his body bits before he beheld the benefits... and that would happen before you even got to the part involving the dishwasher.

I cut the baffles out of the valve covers on the Valiant because they wouldn't clear the rocker arms. They weren't really any dirtier behind the baffles than they were elsewhere. But, if they're really sludged up I'd suggest a soak in gasoline, plenty of air-out time, then having your machine shop bake and wash them. If the shop doesn't have an oven, throw on your rain slickers and break out the power washer.

Flip-side argument: If you can't get it out of there, neither can the engine. Don't sweat it too much.
 

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