My 71 Duster work in progress

[Dr.Jass]

An A/T basically just stacks up and is held together with snap and lock rings.

Same thing with a manual, really. Other than a couple of "selective" snap rings (varying widths based on your unit's particular tolerances) there's very little to go wrong. The various iterations of A833 have slightly different orders of assembly--mostly the OD, but the mainshaft retention ring varies by generation too--but if you pay attention taking it apart, it's cake to rebuild. As far as the selective snap rings, I've yet to encounter a situation where I didn't just re-use my originals in their original locations. They're non-wearing.

I noticed the pro in the video also uses Assemblee Goo, in this case blue which is a little more fluid than the green I use on 4-speeds.

 

[69.5CUDA]

over the years i attempted to dissaemble a few autos ..and gave up ..its the 1 thing i still wont touch..valve bodys and converters sure..even line pressure but actualy rebuilding one is above my paygrade....ive rebuild 1 4sdp..and swore id never do it again.....mind you transfer cases are a HUGE heavy pain in the ass..ill do em if i have to

 

[b-body-bob]

Same thing with a manual, really.

Yes I have rebuilt manuals too. Just take them apart and replace the "consumables".

I remember there was a trick to getting a bunch of roller bearings in place but found a tip to use a piece of PVC to hold them in place and it worked fine.

The first time I had an A/T rebuilt I felt like I'd been cheated. I expected it to be more like an engine rebuild.

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

I got lucky on the other car, all the rebuilding was done shortly before I got it, mild 350ish HP eng, but tranny was messed with too, it was kicking out gears at 6200 when I went from a roll & used the kickdown, I think it supposed to shift at 4700?
this one tranny seemed to function ok, but the motor had a knock that went away as soon as it ran a bit.
I think I'll pull some parts off the motor & take a gander in there in the spring.
After that I'm not sure what the next steps will be?

 

[b-body-bob]

I set up a dial indicator and measured the play on my rear drum and found about .030 free play. My Belleville spring is the old less desirable type and has some witness marks attesting to rough handling abd probably speaking toward it going over center.

I think this is the problem, which is good, because I was giving the valve body some side-eye thinking it was the culprit. I really need to be able to sell that, but can't if it was causing the problem.

The new part used in the video is .050 taller than stock. I guess the belleville spring takes up part of it since that is more than what he measured as the free play. I may end up calling to be sure I get the right part.

I set up the front drum so I can measure it with a dial indicator. It's 0.123, and I only need 0.070-0.080, so I've got about 40 thou to make up. I guess I'll use thicker steels to make that up, maybe one thicker steel and a thicker snap ring.

The valvebody came with instructions to modify the 71 up servo, but mine is the earlier one so I don't have to do that. I will ditch one spring out of that though, to accommodate the 3.8 lever. I need to get a solid spacer for the rear servo, and ditch the spring on that. I don't know why that wasn't done before now - and it makes me wonder if maybe it shouldn't be done this time too.

I haven't won this one yet, but I'm starting to feel like I'm getting there.

 

[b-body-bob]

More info

 

[Dr.Jass]

I don't know if I can make it through this video with the guy repeatedly saying "bellvue spring" after seeing it referenced correctly in the f__kin' title.

 

[Dr.Jass]

I'm pretty sure the later belleville/piston arrangement arrived in '72 and was used, I believe, until the demise of the 727, although it may have been the advent of the 518 or the nomenclature change (37RH). It's kind of ironic that he makes a similar assertion (although he says '75), then almost immediately says it's harder to find than the '62-'71 unit. The better design was around for ~10 more years. Even if the changeover was '75, the time frame is still approximately equal. Either way, our junkyard of choice has a lot more '72-up stuff in it, and automatics were a lot more popular in the later years particularly in trucks.

I also found it curious that the aftermarket heavy-duty spring uses the more failure-prone design, but I suppose the diesel guys emulated what they found in their transmissions. The kerosene camp really knows what "high line pressure" is all about, too. One of the SunCoast 618s we installed at the diesel shop had a minimum line pressure of 225--it's programmable in that trans--and topped out beyond the range, nay, the physical limitations, of the pressure sensor. Nobody makes a sensor for that application that can withstand >250PSI. We must've replaced close to a dozen failed sensors in that transmission in the two years I was there. The customer drove it daily; it was his work truck.

I was surprised to see him using the "wave washer" (marcel) snap ring a'tall, considering the problems it caused me in a fully-automatic, lower-pressure situation.

 

[Dr.Jass]

I remember there was a trick to getting a bunch of roller bearings in place but found a tip to use a piece of PVC to hold them in place and it worked fine.

A piece of broomstick works too. As long as it's around .875" diameter, it works. The other trick is the green Assemblee Goo, which is a lifesaver when it comes to the free rollers in the main drive pinion. You can't broomstick that shit, and they'll drive you up a tree if they fall out of place during assembly... drag the mainshaft assembly back out, remove the pinion, re-set the bearings and try again. It's infuriating.

In most of the A833s I've done, the "consumables" weren't even close to consumed. I put three of the four synchro rings right back into the OD I just rebuilt, and didn't use the fourth original because of an error I made. Later close inspection shows I could've used it, so I kept it.

 

[b-body-bob]

I don't know if I can make it through this video with the guy repeatedly saying "bellvue spring" after seeing it referenced correctly in the f__kin' title.

I grew up on Belleview Road. And the view was quite Belle.

That video left me with questions. Did he say it was a billet spring?

I'm still not sure what needs fixed but I think I'm on the right track. Maybe.

My parts trans is newer than the one I'm working on so it might have the later model parts in it that I can scavenge, but I got the feeling that replacing the older stuff with the newer stuff just results in the same problem on the new parts. There's no way to know if the spring in that is any good, or that the one in the trans now is bad.

 

[b-body-bob]

One question I had was, if the piston hasn't popped out past the seal, will the play cause the car to creep in neutral. The guy who made the first video replied "No, it will not cause your car to creep in neutral. It's hard to say without having your transmission on my bench, but like I stated before, it sounds like you have a hydraulic problem."

From a prior post of his:

"As for the original topic of this thread, it sounds like a hydraulic problem, and I would be looking closely for cross leaks in the forward clutch circuit. This will include the valve body (also verify manual valve position), and the stator support that is bolted to the pump."

IOW, just keep looking at stuff and scratching your head. Ok, I can do that.

I really need to call someone but I figure they won't have a ready solution either.

 

[b-body-bob]

It's colder than a welldigger's butt out there, currently 45 in the garage though, so I'm going to go out and look for things that might leak into the forward (rear) clutch pack or evidence there's cross leaking in the valve body. I'll be surprised if I find anything wrong.

 

[b-body-bob]

I plugged the rear clutch assy into the stator support and air checked it and confirmed there's no cross-leaks.
I checked the case passages to be sure there are no cross-leaks.
I checked the manual valve for the correct length in D (1.82"), no problem.
I ain't taking that valvebody apart. It either is or is not the problem, but either way, I'm changing it so there's no reason to loose any tiny balls messing around with it. (I don't think it's the problem.)

I re-measured the free play in the rear clutch piston and see it's actually closer to 0.050 than it is to 0.035 But still, the lip seal isn't popped out and works fine under air.

 

[Dr.Jass]

I re-measured the free play in the rear clutch piston and see it's actually closer to 0.050 than it is to 0.035 But still, the lip seal isn't popped out and works fine under air.

How much air pressure are you using?

I was hoping you wouldn't f__k with the valve body simply because you are changing it. If it's the issue, it won't be soon enough.

 

[b-body-bob]

Not a whole lot, 30 psi or so. Whatever was in the tank. I guess to get it according to expectations I should have more like 100+. I should have fired up the compressor, it would've helped warm it up some.

 

[b-body-bob]

I tested it at 100psi and it acts the same as it did with 30. In and out, as you'd expect. The seal swells and gets close to the edge but it doesn't come out.

Two odd things I noticed. The brown thrust washer between the drums is supposed to measure ~ .065 but this one is .085, and I noticed that there was no front thrust washer between the front drum and the pump/stator support.

Before I took it apart I quickly checked the end play and found it was the same as I had written down in the book from the last time it was apart. So it seems like that front thrust washer was never there, or at least, it isn't my fault it isn't there. I suspect in the past someone used the over-thick brown washer and the extra .020 makes up for the missing front thrust washer. FWIW the endplay is racecar tight per the Munro book - less than 0.20. Factory spec is .030-.040 or something like that.

 

[b-body-bob]

I got an idea to just give up and hand it off to a shop.

It's getting to where I need odds and ends parts to straighten this thing out and ordering parts and advice over the phone isn't getting me any closer to finished.

There's only two shops here that I know to be reputable. One of them said he's retiring in April and has work scheduled through February. I mentioned it was a race transmission and he wasn't really interested in a unit someone else has been into so I wished him a happy retirement. The second one told me to call back the 3rd week of January. I suspect the 3rd week of January will turn into the 3rd week of February, and on and on.

The confusing part, I guess, is that I don't see how rebuilding one could take more than a day if you've got the knowledge (and patience) to figure out what it needs and had the parts on hand.

 

[Dr.Jass]

Based on the number of transmission faults and failures I see at work, I'm not surprised a good transmission shop is buried in work. We don't have a local trans shop, per se, and most shops in the area prefer to simply install a new factory replacement unit. Something like yours? You'd be doing it yourself or driving 50 miles to the nearest reputable trans shop.

 

[b-body-bob]

Based on the number of transmission faults and failures I see at work, I'm not surprised a good transmission shop is buried in work. We don't have a local trans shop, per se, and most shops in the area prefer to simply install a new factory replacement unit. Something like yours? You'd be doing it yourself or driving 50 miles to the nearest reputable trans shop.

It's aggravating, I can't even give up successfully here. I had the same problem with getting bodywork done. Nobody wants to work on old stuff.

 

[Dr.Jass]

Nobody wants to work on old stuff.

There's a reason my Challenger is 200 miles away.

"It's a 1974 Challenger."
"Yeah, uh, well... I guess we could maybe squeeze it in."
"It's black."
"Whoo, wouldya look at that--the schedule's more full than I thought. Sorry."

Ironically, there is a body shop here that would've done it. The guy that would've done it is a phenom, too--absolute first-rate, never half-asses anything. John's also a longtime acquaintance, and his brother Pete is a good friend. I thought to bring the car to that shop, then Pete went on at great length about how much his brother hates doing old cars like that. So, not wanting to make John's life miserable, I found someone else. No biggie.
About three weeks ago, Pete and I were on a road trip and out of nowhere he says, "John wants to know why you didn't bring your car to them. They would've done it. He's kind of irate that you didn't call there."
I told Pete, "You tell your brother that I brought the car elsewhere because his little brother made a huge production out of how much he hates working on old cars, and that I didn't want to make him do something he hates."
"Well..." like he'd only been joking, or maybe overstated his case, "...your car was pretty nice."
"You tell him that's why, next time you talk to him. You'd better, too, because you know that's what I'm going to tell him when I see him next. Also tell him I'm looking at another car, and when that one's ready for bodywork I'll call him."