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Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
He tells me this 300+ spot welds into using them...Better start using oil when drilling them out...
restoman
The paint fumes have cleared so I'm
Actually, I'm pretty sure I mentioned it way back when we were discussing your getting them...
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
I'm actually not after some consideration. Think about it: forward of where the K-member firmly triangulates them, how much good would it do to tie them further to the inner fenders, especially when they're again triangulated at the core support? It wouldn't accomplish much, if anything. The strut rods are firmly anchored to the K-member, so there's very little torsional load on the rails forward of its mounts. Being that A-bodies were economy cars never intended to be big-block strip terrors (even though the factory built some), it makes perfect sense to save on material and man-hours.
We'll address the inner-fender stringer support issues on both sides while we're there. Those are a common failure point; they break free of the inner fender under extreme loading such as high-g turns and, uh, coming down from wheelstands. Neither should be an issue here, but while we've got the welder out...
We'll address the inner-fender stringer support issues on both sides while we're there. Those are a common failure point; they break free of the inner fender under extreme loading such as high-g turns and, uh, coming down from wheelstands. Neither should be an issue here, but while we've got the welder out...
restoman
The paint fumes have cleared so I'm
Spend some time repairing unitized construction and you'll gain a new appreciation for the strength of the design. I've seen some cars that were rotted/cobbled so bad you'd wonder how they could possibly still be driven, let alone display decent panel gaps. Too many spot welds will actually weaken the area as the multiple welds will change the load bearing from the entire unit to a localized, singular area. Heat kills strength... Drilling them out, while faster and less messy doesn't give you an idea of how well they work. Go after a car with an air chisel and a good bit and you'll see what I mean. A body, B body... doesn't matter. They were all built similar and the amount of spot welds really didn't change whether the car came with a 198 slant or a Hemi. Big engine rides might have additional structural members but the welds were all pretty much the same.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
Back at it again today. We thought we might have the rail replaced by day's end, but it was not to be. We spent the day prepping the frame and the new rail for the job, as well as having to cut the control arm off the old rail since the cam bolts were stuck beyond normal removal means. Stretch is an old pro with cutting suspension bits, having worked at a suspension shop for more than 50 years now. 
I also did some grinding on the old floorpans solely for the purpose of locating the spot welds we'll need to cut to remove them. Lots of solid progress, though photo-wise it wasn't very enthralling. If anyone wants to see pictures of grind marks, me sanding a frame mount, or Stretch playing with his dolly, though, I can post up a few.
I also did some grinding on the old floorpans solely for the purpose of locating the spot welds we'll need to cut to remove them. Lots of solid progress, though photo-wise it wasn't very enthralling. If anyone wants to see pictures of grind marks, me sanding a frame mount, or Stretch playing with his dolly, though, I can post up a few.71dusterman
Well-known member
Don't want any pics of Stretch and his Dolly. TMI. :dgt:
TheIronSausage
Two brain cells left.. rubbing together for warmth
Are these last two posts repeats from about two weeks ago? Or is it time for me to put down the bong?
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
Uh, yeah, maybe set 'er down for awhile.
I've found that upon opening a thread, it's helpful to hit "refresh" a couple of times. The site's been completely fuckered for quite some time now. Double-posting, not refreshing or updating, etc. That's using a PC; I have no idea what it's like with a phone because duh... phones are for texting.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
Stretchemite and I have been working on the car in his garage for several weekends now, and I'm happy to report that the frame rail is permanently installed as of today. Per the factory dimensions, we're in spec for everything so all the time we've spent prepping and double-checking was well worth it. There was a a little unconventional engineering during the installation, such as pulling the fender apron into place using the shock tower, a bearing splitter, and a long bolt. It's all in and permanent now.
We've also got the driver's floor pan final-fitted and awaiting welding. After that, we'll add the four-speed tunnel extension, then tackle the passenger's side. :doh:
Too tired to post many pics at the moment... I'll get to it, I promise.
We've also got the driver's floor pan final-fitted and awaiting welding. After that, we'll add the four-speed tunnel extension, then tackle the passenger's side. :doh:
Too tired to post many pics at the moment... I'll get to it, I promise.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
That's the plan. In fact, I want to grab the "color camera" from my old store and use it to match the truly-shitty incorrect white on most of the car. The car's a nice 50-footer, but up close it's horrible. Big pecker track from the fuel filler down where the paint's lifted, etc. Beneath all that grime, the engine bay is the original factory white... so a mismatch just adds to the, uh, mystique.
thrashingcows
Drowning deep in my sea of loathing...so I'm
I endorse the mismatch styling.....
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
Well, despite lack of updates, we've been moving right along on the Signet. There was much more to this than expected, and though it's not been terribly difficult it has been time-consuming. Lots of little details that you don't consider when taking on a project like this. Panels that need to be repaired or fabricated, areas that could use a little shoring up, finding things you didn't know needed attention, and trying to do it all right while actually learning how to do it in the first place. It's not a matter of trying to make it pretty restoration-wise--if it were, I'd have ordered more sheetmetal--so much as making sure everything is strong and safe. This could turn out to be a pretty serious car when all's said and done, so things like an evaporated front-passenger seatbelt mount need to be carefully considered and rebuilt. The question we've asked each other time and again during all this work has been, "Will this survive a near-5,000RPM clutch dump on sticky tires, and the potential bad landing?" Strength is of the utmost concern right now, so that it won't be later.
At this moment, both the framerail and the driver's side pan are completely done, including the "sub-floor" area of the over-axle pan (it underlaps the floorpan). I fabri-cobbled a gusset for the outside of the LH inner fender to strengthen its connection to the framerail in the area of the clutch countershaft bracket, which wasn't 100% necessary but is now 100% overkill strength-wise. An overkill reinforcement was also made for the shock-tower area just above the axis of the upper control-arm bushings, this one on the engine side. The RH rocker is also done, having been about 50% reconstructed with new metal including the aforementioned seat-belt mounting nut plate, which is now "fish-plated" and almost certainly stronger than original being double- and even triple-wall section in places. Stretchy did a fantastic job patching the sub-floor area on the RH side yesterday, and I installed the manual-trans tunnel extension for the shifter. Body-wise, we only need to trim the tunnel to meet the RH (passenger) floorpan and do a bit of finish grinding, and the RH pan will be ready to drop in place. Other than a few touches here and there for added strength, and a little work at the shackle area of the rear LH rail, that will conclude the "body" portion of the build.
Mechanically, there are now more pedals than we had at the outset and the control arms and K-H disc spindles are now installed with new bushings and ball joints throughout. The driver's side has also got the rotor and caliper in place, which we did A) because we could and B) because we needed the inspiration. The steering linkage is all new except (obviously) the drag link, and I've got the now-floor-shift column ready to go back together with the longer manual steering shaft. Obviously, the drag link will be hung only tightly enough to steer the car while pushing for the time being, since later on it will need to be removed again to pass through both the headers and the oil pan. :dance:
I've currently got the cluster out to fix a broken trace on the circuit board going to the cluster regulator, which explains the non-functioning temp gauge. It would also explain the inoperable fuel gauge, if'n said gauge even has a needle. Neither one of us can actually tell with the cluster assembled, but I've got a replacement gauge here so it's really a non-issue. I also have a fancy new solid-state cluster regulator here somewhere for it. Does the car deserve it? Not really, but it's one less concern. Regarding other electrical upgrades, I'll be installing a hidden DPDT switch in the car that will be used to change the function of the steering wheel's horn ring from its normal function to engaging the line lock. When the line lock is active rather than the horn, one of the fender-mount turn signal indicators will be illuminate as a status indicator, and when the lock is actually holding the brake the other one will light. A couple of Hugh Jass diodes will prevent backfeed to any of the other lamps on the car.
I still need to button up the engine, including degreeing the Hugh Jass camshaft and measuring for pushrods. That means I've got to remove two of those enormous fuckin' valvesprings, which is not something I'm eager to do. I also need to assemble a four-speed, which involves taking apart two A833s to create one. I'm installing an early ball & trunion six-banger gearset with the deeper 3.09:1 first gear into a '68 slip-yoke case/tailshaft housing. With that gearset and 4.10s in the rear, first gear final drive is 12.67:1--the equivalent of a 4.76:1 axle gear with the original 1968 2.66:1 first gear, or a 5.13 with the '70-up 2.45:1 first (or an A727/A904). Yeah, traction will be a concern on the skinny Hoosiers with that big hit on the last yellow. Which reminds me, I need to order a driveshaft as well... Oy.
The rear axle is almost ready to go together, Stretch having pressed new bearings and seals onto the shafts awhile back, and my having the brakes ready to install. I want to swap a clutch-type diff into one of my 4.10 center sections and put in the new "aggressive" clutches I've got sitting on the shelf. That'll be the "track pig" while a 3.23 should suffice for street duty when the time comes, especially with the deep first. Once that's together and we've got a driveshaft, we'll install everything loosely on the Super Stocks, set the pinion angle, and weld the new perches in place.
God, there's still so much work to do. As is usually the case, the original timeframe was essentially impossible. I'd hoped to have this thing at the track opener on May 6th. :doh:
There are so many pictures at this point, trying to catch up in photos is nigh-on impossible while I've still got things to do. However, a few teasers of real, visible progress are at least in order.
Finalizing the burn-in on the framerail, 04/15/17. The bearing splitter/nut/washer arrangement actually held the rail in perfect alignment axially, while also holding the shock tower to the inner fender for final welding. It worked even more brilliantly than we'd hoped.
Yours truly welding in the LH floorpan, 05/14/17. The fit of the AMD panels is really hard to beat.
All welded and ground, with preliminary epoxy primer, 05/20/17.
Same day, no time to waste. Stretchy gets after the RH floorpan's spot welds. Check out that forward rust hole, the approximate center of which was once the anchor point for the front passenger's seat belt. The one a foot back ain't any prettier, of course.
Passenger-side rear sub-floor area of the over-axle pan. Ugh.
It took some significant cutting on 05/21/17 to finally reach solid, useful metal on that rocker and sub-floor. Shitty cell-phone pic, my apologies. I forgot my camera that day. :doh:
We had to assemble this later that day for motivational purposes. It's really quite motivational.
Stretchy gets on wit' his own bad self working out one of the final pieces to building the Six Million Dollar rocker (actual cost, about $4) 05/28/17. We discussed and agreed on the approach and implementation, but the execution was all him. He went all perfectionist here (completely unnecessarily on this rig) and the results are both pretty and incredibly strong.
Toldja! This was prior to final grinding. I totally trust my life to this mount, though for obvious reasons I never hope I have to do so.
More to come...
At this moment, both the framerail and the driver's side pan are completely done, including the "sub-floor" area of the over-axle pan (it underlaps the floorpan). I fabri-cobbled a gusset for the outside of the LH inner fender to strengthen its connection to the framerail in the area of the clutch countershaft bracket, which wasn't 100% necessary but is now 100% overkill strength-wise. An overkill reinforcement was also made for the shock-tower area just above the axis of the upper control-arm bushings, this one on the engine side. The RH rocker is also done, having been about 50% reconstructed with new metal including the aforementioned seat-belt mounting nut plate, which is now "fish-plated" and almost certainly stronger than original being double- and even triple-wall section in places. Stretchy did a fantastic job patching the sub-floor area on the RH side yesterday, and I installed the manual-trans tunnel extension for the shifter. Body-wise, we only need to trim the tunnel to meet the RH (passenger) floorpan and do a bit of finish grinding, and the RH pan will be ready to drop in place. Other than a few touches here and there for added strength, and a little work at the shackle area of the rear LH rail, that will conclude the "body" portion of the build.
Mechanically, there are now more pedals than we had at the outset and the control arms and K-H disc spindles are now installed with new bushings and ball joints throughout. The driver's side has also got the rotor and caliper in place, which we did A) because we could and B) because we needed the inspiration. The steering linkage is all new except (obviously) the drag link, and I've got the now-floor-shift column ready to go back together with the longer manual steering shaft. Obviously, the drag link will be hung only tightly enough to steer the car while pushing for the time being, since later on it will need to be removed again to pass through both the headers and the oil pan. :dance:
I've currently got the cluster out to fix a broken trace on the circuit board going to the cluster regulator, which explains the non-functioning temp gauge. It would also explain the inoperable fuel gauge, if'n said gauge even has a needle. Neither one of us can actually tell with the cluster assembled, but I've got a replacement gauge here so it's really a non-issue. I also have a fancy new solid-state cluster regulator here somewhere for it. Does the car deserve it? Not really, but it's one less concern. Regarding other electrical upgrades, I'll be installing a hidden DPDT switch in the car that will be used to change the function of the steering wheel's horn ring from its normal function to engaging the line lock. When the line lock is active rather than the horn, one of the fender-mount turn signal indicators will be illuminate as a status indicator, and when the lock is actually holding the brake the other one will light. A couple of Hugh Jass diodes will prevent backfeed to any of the other lamps on the car.
I still need to button up the engine, including degreeing the Hugh Jass camshaft and measuring for pushrods. That means I've got to remove two of those enormous fuckin' valvesprings, which is not something I'm eager to do. I also need to assemble a four-speed, which involves taking apart two A833s to create one. I'm installing an early ball & trunion six-banger gearset with the deeper 3.09:1 first gear into a '68 slip-yoke case/tailshaft housing. With that gearset and 4.10s in the rear, first gear final drive is 12.67:1--the equivalent of a 4.76:1 axle gear with the original 1968 2.66:1 first gear, or a 5.13 with the '70-up 2.45:1 first (or an A727/A904). Yeah, traction will be a concern on the skinny Hoosiers with that big hit on the last yellow. Which reminds me, I need to order a driveshaft as well... Oy.
The rear axle is almost ready to go together, Stretch having pressed new bearings and seals onto the shafts awhile back, and my having the brakes ready to install. I want to swap a clutch-type diff into one of my 4.10 center sections and put in the new "aggressive" clutches I've got sitting on the shelf. That'll be the "track pig" while a 3.23 should suffice for street duty when the time comes, especially with the deep first. Once that's together and we've got a driveshaft, we'll install everything loosely on the Super Stocks, set the pinion angle, and weld the new perches in place.
God, there's still so much work to do. As is usually the case, the original timeframe was essentially impossible. I'd hoped to have this thing at the track opener on May 6th. :doh:
There are so many pictures at this point, trying to catch up in photos is nigh-on impossible while I've still got things to do. However, a few teasers of real, visible progress are at least in order.
Finalizing the burn-in on the framerail, 04/15/17. The bearing splitter/nut/washer arrangement actually held the rail in perfect alignment axially, while also holding the shock tower to the inner fender for final welding. It worked even more brilliantly than we'd hoped.
Yours truly welding in the LH floorpan, 05/14/17. The fit of the AMD panels is really hard to beat.
All welded and ground, with preliminary epoxy primer, 05/20/17.
Same day, no time to waste. Stretchy gets after the RH floorpan's spot welds. Check out that forward rust hole, the approximate center of which was once the anchor point for the front passenger's seat belt. The one a foot back ain't any prettier, of course.
Passenger-side rear sub-floor area of the over-axle pan. Ugh.
It took some significant cutting on 05/21/17 to finally reach solid, useful metal on that rocker and sub-floor. Shitty cell-phone pic, my apologies. I forgot my camera that day. :doh:
We had to assemble this later that day for motivational purposes. It's really quite motivational.
Stretchy gets on wit' his own bad self working out one of the final pieces to building the Six Million Dollar rocker (actual cost, about $4) 05/28/17. We discussed and agreed on the approach and implementation, but the execution was all him. He went all perfectionist here (completely unnecessarily on this rig) and the results are both pretty and incredibly strong.
Toldja! This was prior to final grinding. I totally trust my life to this mount, though for obvious reasons I never hope I have to do so.
More to come...
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
This is what I mean when I said he gets all perfectionist. A contour gauge has no place in this project, but while fabricating the sub-floor 05/29/17 he broke the damned thing out anyhow.
For a panel that, after our next round, will probably never be seen by human eyes again.
He broke it out again on the lower curve, though it's hard to tell here. It may look like Frankenstein's monster, but this multi-piece patch was a far better result than the other side, and even with Stretch going all mental on the contours, it ultimately took less time. When we test-fit the new pan yesterday, this thing sits perfectly against it on the first try. The single large patch on the other side required a bunch of rework time, much of it overhead whilst lying down and welding, which was no fun whatsoever. My money is on this side being stronger, as well.
While Stretch worked on that masterpiece, I was patching in the small inner-fender reinforcements I mentioned in my previous post. I also did some reworking of the four-speed tunnel to get it to fit correctly. It was minor, but time-consuming. We fought as a team to get the pedals hung, those uncooperative bastards, but they're in for good now. Yes, the welding on the tunnel is overkill. No, I don't care. Things are startin' to look a bit racy in here.
Plop goes the weasel! First test fit of the RH pan, and it's right on the mark. Stretch's sub-floor fits flush against it, as original. Once we're rid of a couple of high plug welds and trim the tunnel (for which we determined a perfect approach on the other side), this bad-boy will be in that position for good.
As has been the plan all along, after all this work it's still not one bit prettier than when we started. Once it's all assembled it'll all seem pretty pointless to those not in on the joke, so to speak. She'll be gorgeous where it counts, which is my only concern.
There are 100 more pictures I could share but some are redundant and some, well, you'll just have to trust me... so that's all for now.
Stay tuned for my "sleeper approach" to inner-fender rot. It's harder than fixing it the right way, but leaves the ugly and scary in place to keep the uninitiated baffled.
For a panel that, after our next round, will probably never be seen by human eyes again.
He broke it out again on the lower curve, though it's hard to tell here. It may look like Frankenstein's monster, but this multi-piece patch was a far better result than the other side, and even with Stretch going all mental on the contours, it ultimately took less time. When we test-fit the new pan yesterday, this thing sits perfectly against it on the first try. The single large patch on the other side required a bunch of rework time, much of it overhead whilst lying down and welding, which was no fun whatsoever. My money is on this side being stronger, as well.
While Stretch worked on that masterpiece, I was patching in the small inner-fender reinforcements I mentioned in my previous post. I also did some reworking of the four-speed tunnel to get it to fit correctly. It was minor, but time-consuming. We fought as a team to get the pedals hung, those uncooperative bastards, but they're in for good now. Yes, the welding on the tunnel is overkill. No, I don't care. Things are startin' to look a bit racy in here.
Plop goes the weasel! First test fit of the RH pan, and it's right on the mark. Stretch's sub-floor fits flush against it, as original. Once we're rid of a couple of high plug welds and trim the tunnel (for which we determined a perfect approach on the other side), this bad-boy will be in that position for good.
As has been the plan all along, after all this work it's still not one bit prettier than when we started. Once it's all assembled it'll all seem pretty pointless to those not in on the joke, so to speak. She'll be gorgeous where it counts, which is my only concern.
There are 100 more pictures I could share but some are redundant and some, well, you'll just have to trust me... so that's all for now.
Stay tuned for my "sleeper approach" to inner-fender rot. It's harder than fixing it the right way, but leaves the ugly and scary in place to keep the uninitiated baffled.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
Oh, one more thing...
This is the original roof from my Challenger. It was a complete panel when we started this, so this gives you an idea how much fabrication we've done. Keep in mind, we've also been hacking away at the bent repro Challenger decklid that Summit Racing didn't want back. There's so much E-body metal in this A-body, I'm not sure if it's a Vallenger or a Challiant.
This is the original roof from my Challenger. It was a complete panel when we started this, so this gives you an idea how much fabrication we've done. Keep in mind, we've also been hacking away at the bent repro Challenger decklid that Summit Racing didn't want back. There's so much E-body metal in this A-body, I'm not sure if it's a Vallenger or a Challiant.