Signet-ficant Other

i was under the impression you were trying desperatly to not paint it and keep the patina ...i fucking hate that word tho...
It ain't patina, it's just old crappy paint over plastic filler and rust.

honestly id just re-shoot the whole thing and call it a day...whites not flashy or special
No, you're right--it's not. However, I'm trying to avoid doing an overall because that's going to open up an entire new can of worms. The paint on the car is bad. Everywhere that wasn't covered by the vinyl is crazed badly... little tiny cracks everywhere, which would require sanding or stripping the whole car past that paint. That means exposing a lot of filler, rust, and other bits that I don't care to address on this car. Also, I dunno if you've priced paint lately but the price has skyrocketed. It's more than twice what it used to be. We had a 4oz bottle of touch-up paint mixed for my co-worker's AMX; walk-in price on it was over $40. Yes, that paint is red but it's still approaching $350 a quart for Nason single-stage urethane, which is the less-expensive variant of DuPont/Axalta. $350 would nearly buy a gallon of red four years ago.

What I'm trying to do is figure out where I can stop with new paint after the roof. I can't really do a blend to the old paint due to the crazing. The only real trouble spot is the C-pillars, since there's a hard paint line at the moulding line from the vinyl top. The paint directly below that line is as bad as anywhere else on the car. Just feathering that edge is going to be a pain.

I know the obvious solution is to paint or bedline the top black and reinstall the mouldings, but I've really fallen in love with the all-white look.

i dig the pinstripes especialy the matching ones down the hood..no seriously id re-apply em after a fresh coat of white
Agreed on the pinstripes. I love 'em, and they really pop now that the roof doesn't break up the car as much. Those are a must-have, regardless of whichever road I take. I just hope that color of stripe tape is still available. That blue is a perfect match to the interior and the wheels. It's hard to see in photos on this page, but the insides of the wheel slots are painted the same blue.
 
It ain't patina, it's just old crappy paint over plastic filler and rust.


No, you're right--it's not. However, I'm trying to avoid doing an overall because that's going to open up an entire new can of worms. The paint on the car is bad. Everywhere that wasn't covered by the vinyl is crazed badly... little tiny cracks everywhere, which would require sanding or stripping the whole car past that paint. That means exposing a lot of filler, rust, and other bits that I don't care to address on this car. Also, I dunno if you've priced paint lately but the price has skyrocketed. It's more than twice what it used to be. We had a 4oz bottle of touch-up paint mixed for my co-worker's AMX; walk-in price on it was over $40. Yes, that paint is red but it's still approaching $350 a quart for Nason single-stage urethane, which is the less-expensive variant of DuPont/Axalta. $350 would nearly buy a gallon of red four years ago.

What I'm trying to do is figure out where I can stop with new paint after the roof. I can't really do a blend to the old paint due to the crazing. The only real trouble spot is the C-pillars, since there's a hard paint line at the moulding line from the vinyl top. The paint directly below that line is as bad as anywhere else on the car. Just feathering that edge is going to be a pain.

I know the obvious solution is to paint or bedline the top black and reinstall the mouldings, but I've really fallen in love with the all-white look.


Agreed on the pinstripes. I love 'em, and they really pop now that the roof doesn't break up the car as much. Those are a must-have, regardless of whichever road I take. I just hope that color of stripe tape is still available. That blue is a perfect match to the interior and the wheels. It's hard to see in photos on this page, but the insides of the wheel slots are painted the same blue.
A quart of single layer white, lay down two or three coats after sprinkling some salt on the roof. When the paint is dry, brush off the painted-salt to give a weathered look, scuff the remainder with a grey scotch-brite and let the airborne contaminants dirty up the finish.
Instant patina.
 
Well, the stripe eraser was a bust. It worked alright, but it smeared the glue in spots and just created a bunch of eraser dust for the most part. It was also less than fun. I can see where it'd work well for small areas like stripes, but for large swatches of mostly-dried-up glue, nay. I don't know if it's because the paint was covered by vinyl for 55 years, but that paint didn't withstand the eraser very well. I decided to move on to the next method.
Since the glue was rock hard for the most part, I decided to take off the little bit of still-soft glue with adhesive remover and a scraper. That worked well, but the remover would've had to soak for a long time to work on the dried stuff. Just to see how it'd work, I grabbed the palm orbital sander and started doin' the jitterbug. That was the best method by a long shot, especially considering I started with the same 40-grit disc I'd been using on the LH fender. I got a hell of a lot further than one might expect with a well-used disc. I then grabbed a new 36-grit disc, and with that and what I'd accomplished earlier, I did a bit over half the entire roof.

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There's no white paint left on the driver's side a'tall. Anything that appears white on that side of the "skunk stripe" is actually bare metal except at the bottom of the C-pillar. There were three layers under the vinyl: the factory white paint over gray primer, which was atop a red-oxide primer, which looks like rust in the pictures. Only red oxide and bare metal remain other than a few small spots of the gray, mostly low on the C-pillar and along the upper edge of the windshield. The skunk stripe is where I stopped; beyond it is gray primer and legit surface rust.

I found that the most-effective method for the large unsupported section of the roof was to not hold the sander, but just literally use my palm to put just enough pressure on it to run it and move it around. That kept the roof from "oil-canning" under the sandpaper and is probably why I got so much out of one disc. In fact, that paper was still doing so well that after I'd given up on any further orbital use on the roof, I did this to the '71 Challenger fender:

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I cleaned up the entire area below the body line (well, above in the photo) and about 1/3 of the wheel opening. I also got more off around the bumper recess, but caught the rust a couple of times. That beat the edge of the disc pretty badly, but I can still use it.

Next I attacked the drip-rail rust on the passenger's side using a 36-grit disc in the die grinder. No need to screw around trying to finesse anything over there; it's seriously pitted anyhow. In fact, in one area the drip rail is rusted through to the actual roof rail below it (the bottom of the drip rail is part of the roof panel, the vertical part where the moulding fits is the support to which the roof is welded). As you can imagine, this part went much more quickly since die grinders are evil and, in the case of the one I was using, not given to finessing the trigger.

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The location of the seam in the vinyl is quite evident in the above photo, and there's virtually no glue beyond it except what little remains at the skunk stripe. There's a large area of bare metal there which, based on the rest of the roof, was likely at least primed when the car was built, but baked off after the vinyl was gone.

I expected this to get a lot worse, but it didn't. Yes, it'll get bigger but not significantly so:

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The metal around the edge is actually still rather stiff. I'll hog it out a bit more to get to a clean edge, but I'm not going bonkers on it.

I also expected much worse to happen here:

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Again, it'll get worse before it gets better. This is a troublesome spot because although the angle belies it, the drip rail is right in the way of repairing it. Also, welding may be out of the question because there's literally headliner behind it, and there's no way I'm pulling that out. No, I didn't address the lead yet. Still working on a game plan that doesn't involve melting it or creating a ton of lead dust by grinding.


A quart of single layer white, lay down two or three coats after sprinkling some salt on the roof. When the paint is dry, brush off the painted-salt to give a weathered look, scuff the remainder with a grey scotch-brite and let the airborne contaminants dirty up the finish.
Instant patina.
:unsure:

Would that not leave a whole bunch of tiny little salt holes everywhere? It just brushes off, or does it come off with the Scotch-Brite? How would one accomplish such a feat on the C-pillars, where it's possibly the most important in terms of, uh, blending?
 
oof...do yourself a favor..pull out a small size philips driver uh #1? and start doing an impression of a child poking at you to get your attention and run around ALL the drip rails and see if anything else reveals itself..i fear theres more thin hiding spots that the wheel just didnt expose....ive found lots of stuff "rotten from the back side" this way...its how i found out the WHOLE top on my 58 ford was fucked beyond saving...yeah its a bit of a killjoy..but would you rather something "pop up" later........

imo its a white car..shoot it with the cheepest fleet white you can find..sand it just enough to smooth it down prime it smooth it and shoot it...no need to go nuts

as for the stripe tape....id wager....if one dug hard enough or got ahold of some wrap guys one could find the color or something "close enough

as for the headliner.....its easier to pull that you think unless its trashed..even if its "crunchy" you can soak it and soften it up enough to get it off in one piece persoanly i avoid the "cloth" option liners and opt for the more rubbery ones sooooo much easier to work with
 
oof...do yourself a favor..pull out a small size philips driver uh #1? and start doing an impression of a child poking at you to get your attention and run around ALL the drip rails and see if anything else reveals itself.
I've already done that with a #0 flat blade. That's how I know it's relatively solid around the edge.

imo its a white car..shoot it with the cheepest fleet white you can find..sand it just enough to smooth it down prime it smooth it and shoot it...no need to go nuts
Sanding it "just enough" is going to create all kinds of problems with the bubbled/exposed rust, bulged/cracked plastic filler, and holes in the fenders, doors, rockers and quarters. That's far more work than I care to tackle. If you review back far enough in this thread, you'll find the part where the "V EIGHT" and "Valiant Signet" emblems are essentially friction-fit because the plastic is so thick in those areas.

as for the stripe tape....id wager....if one dug hard enough or got ahold of some wrap guys one could find the color or something "close enough"
I'm pretty sure it's something I can find in 3M, but I haven't got the "selection sheet" with color samples and styles at my store. My old store had it, but I just got off the phone with them. I might as well have asked for a lightly grilled weasel on a bun. He had no clue what I was talking about.

as for the headliner.....its easier to pull that you think unless its trashed..even if its "crunchy" you can soak it and soften it up enough to get it off in one piece persoanly i avoid the "cloth" option liners and opt for the more rubbery ones sooooo much easier to work with
Again, not something I'm willing to disturb. I'm pretty sure I can get behind it in that area if need be without taking the whole thing out. I have to look at it a bit more closely to know for sure if it's even an issue.
 
Again, not something I'm willing to disturb. I'm pretty sure I can get behind it in that area if need be without taking the whole thing out. I have to look at it a bit more closely to know for sure if it's even an issue.
As a person who has set his shoestrings on fire before while cutting up a car, I assure you that unexpected fires are the worst kind.
 
Well, in a happy accident I found that I've already got white sealer to do the roof. I didn't remember buying it, but buy it I did sometime last year. I think it was for the AC box before I wholesale shortcut that project. I already have the rest of the materials, including a new quart of 1969 Valiant Dingey White (a one-vehicle-only color!), fiberglass-reinforced and regular filler, spot putty, scrap metal, and welder gas. So if I can stay after it, I've got no excuse for not completing the roof project.

That being said, I'm taking the night off because I don't feel like being coated with sanding dust again after last night's shower (what a mess). I'm also expecting a call shortly so by the time I get started, I'll have just enough time to put everything away again. I did go out to the garage and futz a bit, just to stay in the habit of going out there after work. Threatening rain is keeping me from going further on the Challenger fenders, on which I work outside.
 
FWIW my goto paint shop is "industrial finishes" and has been for a while now..tho which store i use has switched due to the good one close closed...so i litteraly drive over an hour to the other side of town instead of the one 15 mins away...thing is....therees a couple of SERIOUSLY old school guys who work there and LOVE a challange..but they also have lots of seriously out of date books stashed away

you get me a couple SOLID shots of that pinstripe tape ill see if i can get you at the very least a part number and see if it exists in one brand or another

i get not wanting to open a can of worms..im not talking about going that far im talking about going the "used car salesman re-shoot" where you do "just" enough to get a fresh all matching color to stick...not fixing everything

as for the headliner..and knowing where/how it attatches to the bows...you "might" get lucky and keep it out of harms way.as you should be able to pull it away about 6-8 inches...but "if" that baby catches in the slightest your going have a fast burnin fire..so id advise having a second set of eyes when doing anything flamable around it...if not then mist it down with water prior to any work...which reminds me..do you need any roof rail? ive got a 67 fish getting cut up..just so happens to be white..i assume the rail itself is likely the same even if the squaring of the top isnt...figured id offer up chunks at the cost of shipping.,..hell i could toss small chunks in a flat rate box
 
The salt removal does leave holes in the finish, much like deteriorated paint would look like.
But, if you're talking about blending, are you hoping for a more OEM look?

Myself, I'd spray the roof and pillars with a blue to match the interior, put the moldings back on and go with it. $.02...
 
The salt removal does leave holes in the finish, much like deteriorated paint would look like.
Agnes's paint succumbed in a different manner. It crazed. Most of the car looks like the Badlands:

badl56705.jpeg


(I leave it to you to determine if that's Agnes or the Badlands :unsure: )


But, if you're talking about blending, are you hoping for a more OEM look?
I'd say I'm looking for the least-dramatic transition between new paint and something that looks like the above.

Myself, I'd spray the roof and pillars with a blue to match the interior, put the moldings back on and go with it. $.02...
I'd briefly considered that, but after picturing it my mind I quickly decided against that. I can't picture any variance of that combination coming out even mildly appealing. Yeah, it's a crappy old beater but the intent wasn't to put people off their lunch!

If I don't go with white paint, it'll go back to black. I'd prefer paint, but bedliner would save me a lot of effort.
 
It's not. It's an aerial shot of the actual Badlands, but I don't have a clear detail shot of the surface of Agnes.

It's not far off, though.
 
This is the actual paint on the car:

100_6057.JPG


That photo is of the driver's side cowl just below the windshield. Most of the horizontal surfaces are similar.
 
This is the actual paint on the car:

View attachment 27859


That photo is of the driver's side cowl just below the windshield. Most of the horizontal surfaces are similar.
I would try to not mess with that, or I would strip it because I would be afraid of partial loss. Each little cracked out piece that comes off leaves room for other little cracked to pieces to migrate and fall off.

So, in the end, I would strip it then paint the top some bright color. The blue sounded good in my mind but I don't know what you're dealing with. I would not kid myself into thinking I could match the lower body white though.

There is a material I've seen used on motor trend TV to paint the inside and underside of a car. My A12 should be painted that way too. They tint it to match whatever color you need. That might help you feed your craving for bedliner without going full blown rhinoliner.
 
This is what white with a blue top looks like:

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That, regardless of body style, looks perfectly awful to me. It literally violates my sense of taste. There must be something to it, too, because pictures of white cars with blue tops (that weren't mid-'80s GM G-body landau roofs) were hard to find. It ain't happening.

I'm considering doing the roof, tops of the fenders/quarters/doors, the hood, and the decklid and using the break line as the paint cutoff. The problem is that is the pinstripe on the car is discontinued so I wouldn't be able to put the stripes back on the hood. I'm also considering a textured white and reinstalling the mouldings, but that's going to require some experimentation prior to me attempting it on the car.
 
funny one, but its worked well for me.... find a nice fitting flat head screwdriver something that fits nice and snug between the rail and the top, run it under a torch and slip n slice it out go till it starts to slow down and then re-heat the driver...it doesn need to be red hot just hot enough to make things easy....bonus points if it semi sharpened
This turned out to be just the ticket, sorta. You get all the credit though, because what I did worked phenomenonally well and it was based on what you suggested.

I mis-remembered what you'd said to do, and did what I thought you'd said instead. I did remember the bit about the screwdriver, but I didn't have one both junky and large enough for the job, so I grabbed a putty knife/scraper and my trusty old propane torch. I heated the drip rail itself, right on the lower corner where the bottom of the chrome trim grabs. I started with a small area, about 2" long, and heated that section of rail. Then I put the scraper in with the blade parallel to the drip rail edge and pushed it into the corner. Then it was just a simple pry against the rail to force the blade toward the roof and the sealer just walked out. That alone got about 98% of it. A bit more heating and I was able to even get the stuff stuck between the roof's edge and the outside edge of the drip rail. After I'd worked out the method I heated longer areas, up to about 5". In several places, after heating I could grab the "tail" (where the old sealant lifted but tore while I was pulling) and lift out the whole section at once. It just peeled out of the channel like nothing. I did have to go back and get that small crevice between the roof edge and the drip rail in those places, but more heat and diligence and I even managed to get that.

In these photos you can see the edge of the actual roof panel and how it doesn't fill the entire drip rail. That space is the area that was the most difficult to clean. Anything I missed should come away with either a wire wheel or blasting, both of which I plan on doing.

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That whole rail took me just under an hour to get cleared. I was sure I'd be there all night. Thanks again, @69.5CUDA.
 
Kinda how I did the undercoating on the cuda, tedious but works well.

You have a good place to blast, my setup was nasty to work in/with?
If you could call it in.
 
that was actualy option2 that id typed but didnt leave in as i figured with how much you were trying to save paint.....that said its my other goto but only on rails either deep or strong enough to handle it....i wont do it on truck rails..er not exactly..instead i will heat from the top..the sealer itself....ive actualy cut down putty knives specificaly for doing that
 
Kinda how I did the undercoating on the cuda, tedious but works well.
It wasn't even that tedious. I only worked on it for about 50 minutes, which went quickly. It was much easier than scraping undercoating, too--I did a lot of that on this car a few years back.

You have a good place to blast, my setup was nasty to work in/with?
If you could call it in.
I have nothing better than my driveway. I actually have an improvised blasting gun that works well for small areas. Its draw tube is a piece of big-rig nylon air-brake tubing. Works pretty well for what started out as a garden-hose nozzle.

that was actualy option2 that id typed but didnt leave in as i figured with how much you were trying to save paint...
I never got even close to any paint worth saving. The drip rail on that side is pretty rusted and both rails are going to get painted with the rest of the roof regardless... and then I'll reinstall the mouldings and all will be wonderful.
__________________________________

Still no luck on the pinstriping. The only color I've found that was close is from Universal Products. I should say "was"; it's been discontinued for quite some time. From what I could gather, I don't even know if that color was available in that stripe configuration. 3M, Prostripe (TrimBrite), Sharpline and Avery have nothing in the same zip code, never mind the ballpark.
 

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