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Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
I've got mufflers in spades. 
What I apparently don't have, is the patience or the werewithal to start over with grinding these God-forsaken rocker shafts.
I messed around in the garage for a couple of hours tonight trying to work out a better way to offset these rocker shafts. I came close but nothing worked quite to my expectations, leading me to believe I'm essentially screwed trying to do what I really want this go-round. What I need done would take, I dunno, half an hour on a mill--maybe 45 minutes with setup. Of course, I don't have access to a mill. The closest person I know with access to a mill has had some other parts of mine for over three months and hasn't done a thing with 'em. I don't want to wait until Halloween for this to get done, and I've absolutely had it with half-assed results from die grindings for hours. All that's accomplished thus far is to vacate space in my wallet. I'm pretty frustrated at the moment; not far from ripping the whole top end off and replacing it, and the camshaft, with some more-sedate W2 stuff from a different, proven low-12-second, engine.
On the bright side, I didn't experiment with any new parts tonight. I wanted to see results using the old fucked-up ones first (which weren't nearly as bad as I'd originally thought, but they're junk now). I also found another set of new Sealed Power rocker shafts in the basement stockpile, so I'm apt to use that $45 pair rather than the $110 Comp Cams units. I broke out a set of T/A shafts from which I can copy the oiling strategy on the new ones, and even worked out a "bad homegrown" method of imitating the factory banana grooves.
I've got one more idea to try. That's got to wait until Friday because--surprise!--I'm waiting on parts once again. At least this time it's only about $5 worth. We'll see what the 3-day weekend brings... whether that'll be a reassembled engine or a rocker shaft through the garage window, I cannot say for sure.
What I apparently don't have, is the patience or the werewithal to start over with grinding these God-forsaken rocker shafts.
I messed around in the garage for a couple of hours tonight trying to work out a better way to offset these rocker shafts. I came close but nothing worked quite to my expectations, leading me to believe I'm essentially screwed trying to do what I really want this go-round. What I need done would take, I dunno, half an hour on a mill--maybe 45 minutes with setup. Of course, I don't have access to a mill. The closest person I know with access to a mill has had some other parts of mine for over three months and hasn't done a thing with 'em. I don't want to wait until Halloween for this to get done, and I've absolutely had it with half-assed results from die grindings for hours. All that's accomplished thus far is to vacate space in my wallet. I'm pretty frustrated at the moment; not far from ripping the whole top end off and replacing it, and the camshaft, with some more-sedate W2 stuff from a different, proven low-12-second, engine.
On the bright side, I didn't experiment with any new parts tonight. I wanted to see results using the old fucked-up ones first (which weren't nearly as bad as I'd originally thought, but they're junk now). I also found another set of new Sealed Power rocker shafts in the basement stockpile, so I'm apt to use that $45 pair rather than the $110 Comp Cams units. I broke out a set of T/A shafts from which I can copy the oiling strategy on the new ones, and even worked out a "bad homegrown" method of imitating the factory banana grooves.
I've got one more idea to try. That's got to wait until Friday because--surprise!--I'm waiting on parts once again. At least this time it's only about $5 worth. We'll see what the 3-day weekend brings... whether that'll be a reassembled engine or a rocker shaft through the garage window, I cannot say for sure.
69.5CUDA
Blah Blah Blah
if youve got acess to a drill press order up a milling bit and just do it yourself....i have a shitty mill and have had better luck on my drill press than the mill, mind you i pretty much only do aluminum and plastics but its really all the samehell ive come up with ways to use an angle grinder with a cut off wheel to mill some things out LOL, really depends on what your trying to do
lemmy know what your tryin to do exactly and maybe ive got a trick up my sleeves...if you were close id say just come use the mill
lemmy know what your tryin to do exactly and maybe ive got a trick up my sleeves...if you were close id say just come use the mill
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
I have a drill press, but I need a precise method of feeding the rocker shaft into the bit to create an oval from a round hole. That was part of what I tried last night--the bit and the shaft won't play nice and it starts to wander off-center. I also tried plugging the shaft with a section of 3/8" round stock and drilling through that. I actually had better luck doing that, but the bit drifted a tad in the process. It gave me an idea, though, so I ordered more round stock (raw U-bolt stock) which I should have here tomorrow.
If that doesn't work, I talked to a fella whom I'd totally forgotten today that can absolutely do what I need. He's a "get shit done" sort of guy, so I'm sure he'd have the parts for a matter of days. I can live with that, but I'm going to attempt my final idea first. If it doesn't work, they're off to his place.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
Well, in my haste to get parts I got the wrong pushrod measurement, made an assumption, and sho' 'nuff, the pushrods I got were R-O-N-G. They're .158" too short, which I determined after finally changing the battery in my 12" digital caliper.
Better yet, only two companies make "off the shelf" pushrods that will suffer both the roller cam and valvespring pressures of this engine: Isky and Crower. Those sets cost $229 and $209 respectively (Summit; they're significantly higher buying direct!). Youch. I'm not sure how either company can justify those prices when Smith Brothers can make a set of custom pushrods to order for about $150, guaranteed for up to 700lb of spring force, and ship them within 24 hours of my order. Shipping? Well, that's free if you can live with Priority Mail.
So, Smith Bros. it shall be, but I'm not just ordering pushrods. Browsing around their site, I found that they offer U.S.-made rocker adjusters in the correct 3/8"-24 thread with 5/16" ball ends and 12-point locknuts for about $74/set (as opposed to the still-unknown-sized offshore PRWs @ $68/set or the balls-expensive Hughes or Mancini parts). Further investigation revealed their gorgeous banana-groove rocker shafts, also made in-house, for under $120/pair. Their shafts make my recently-purchased, soon-to-be-returned Comp shafts look like galvanized plumbing pipe. I'm sold. Will I use those shafts on this engine? Probably not, but if the Sealed Power ones don't work out it's a definite possibility.
I really wish I'd have checked the pushrods when they came in Wednesday. The new ones would already be on the way.
Better yet, only two companies make "off the shelf" pushrods that will suffer both the roller cam and valvespring pressures of this engine: Isky and Crower. Those sets cost $229 and $209 respectively (Summit; they're significantly higher buying direct!). Youch. I'm not sure how either company can justify those prices when Smith Brothers can make a set of custom pushrods to order for about $150, guaranteed for up to 700lb of spring force, and ship them within 24 hours of my order. Shipping? Well, that's free if you can live with Priority Mail.
So, Smith Bros. it shall be, but I'm not just ordering pushrods. Browsing around their site, I found that they offer U.S.-made rocker adjusters in the correct 3/8"-24 thread with 5/16" ball ends and 12-point locknuts for about $74/set (as opposed to the still-unknown-sized offshore PRWs @ $68/set or the balls-expensive Hughes or Mancini parts). Further investigation revealed their gorgeous banana-groove rocker shafts, also made in-house, for under $120/pair. Their shafts make my recently-purchased, soon-to-be-returned Comp shafts look like galvanized plumbing pipe. I'm sold. Will I use those shafts on this engine? Probably not, but if the Sealed Power ones don't work out it's a definite possibility.
I really wish I'd have checked the pushrods when they came in Wednesday. The new ones would already be on the way.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
It absolutely is, and I will do exactly that Tuesday since I'm assuming they're off Monday (like I am). I'm not sure the adjusters or shafts are actually made in-house, but it's definitely worth a shot.
Meanwhile, back to the garage to attempt my latest butchery.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
Remember when I said I had one more idea to try? I got after it tonight and it's slow going.
All the talk of crescent-moon plugs, grinding, and JB Weld got me to thinking. Last week, I tried installing a straight plug and then offset drilling with a small pilot bit. The results were more promising than anticipated, but as one would expect there was some bit drift since the rocker shaft drills more easily than a piece of Grade 5 steel rod. Still, that wasn't a defeat so much as a lesson.
I ran an idea past Elastic Man on the way to work one morning: "What if I made a small kerf lengthwise in the plug to act as a pilot of sorts? To help keep the pilot drill centered?" Stretch thought it was silly enough that it just might work. In the time since, I expanded on that idea. Since oil flow and pressure are major concerns at the rockers, I decided to kill two stones with one bird and clearance the plugs at a right angle to allow more flow around them. I made five dowels from a piece of 3/8" U-bolt rod and broke out the die grinder and rasp bit.
Right now, you're asking yourself, "Self, why didn't Regis just use pre-made 3/8" x 3/4" dowel pins?" Excellent question, Matilda, and I've got an even better answer: Dowels are somewhere between diamond and Wile E. Coyote on the toughness scale. Do you want to try and put a kerf in a hardened dowel with a hacksaw? I don't.
There was another potential benefit to this clearance approach: If there's any bit walk away from the shaft, the curve would guide it back to the kerf, a.k.a. the half-ass pilot... which would hopefully re-center it for the trip through the opposite side.
I made the kerf using a hacksaw, since it affords much better tool control than the air saw or sawzall. The kerf itself doesn't need to be very deep:
After welding the plugs into the shafts and making a small divot with the rasp to allow the drill to center on the kerf, I was ready to attempt drilling. Check out this drill rig, comprised of two no-name C-clamp locking pliers holding a Harbor Freight machinist's vise to a $120 Daftsmen offshore drill press. All the setup work was done by calibrated eyeball. Edwin L. Drake is either rolling in his grave or shedding a tear of joy out of pride. The first bit I used was a 5/64". It doesn't look centered, but it is. Merely a trick of the light due to the weld and the grinding around it.
I went through about four additional drill bits, including using a broken step drill at one point. I was at 1/4" which was past the break on the Unibit, so I thought that would self-center nicely and get me to 5/16". It did, but only on the top side. Rather than monkey with my setup, I switched to a regular 5/16" to finish that step. Things were going entirely too well, and soon I was ready for the final plunge, which used a 25/64" bit (3/8" is 24/64"):
Slap me on the ass and call me Sally, it worked. It f__kin' worked! The hole stayed straight and came through exactly where needed on the bottom side. The bolt was a beautiful fit with no rattle or slop, and the offset looked about perfect.
Of course, the litmus test here is whether I can install the stand. With the bolt hole being that close to the bolt size, if it were off even a hair it wouldn't go through the Sharp stand. It did, beautifully--almost like it was made for it, which it was.
OK, so you're saying I got lucky. Maybe, but obviously my luck is on a tear because I got repeatable results with the next hole. It was more of a challenge because the plug/dowel was about 1/16" too short and the kerf moved a bit on the first weld, but I was still able to make it work.
The other three dowels for this shaft are already made, although the end plugs are not clearanced for oil since it's not a concern. I'll get after the remaining plugs (and the other shaft) tomorrow. I did knock out the end plugs to facilitate cleaning out all the chips and drilling oil so I'll have to get another set of those for each shaft.
I also tried to get a good photo of what the inside of the shaft looks like with the plugs in place, but it was nearly impossible. So I took the best one and manipulated it in software to help give you an idea of the oil's-eye view. It's not a great photo but you can see the light coming through the shaft. There's no bolt installed in the photo but with one in place there's still more than 1/16" between it and the hollowed-out part of the dowel visible to the right, plus room for more oil on the other (left) side. I don't foresee any flow-related problems; in fact I expect it to work better than the old hogged-out shafts.
This was quite a time-consuming process. Due to the relatively short stroke of my drill press in relation to the work, I had to move the table on virtually every drill-bit change. A lot of time was spent checking and re-checking center (off center?) to make sure I wasn't about to destroy my progress. Also, the chuck key holder is on the RH side of the drill press, so I never put the key back in its proper place (I'm left-handed) and spend a lot of time looking for it. Regardless, I say it was time well spent because it worked... it f__kin' worked!
All the talk of crescent-moon plugs, grinding, and JB Weld got me to thinking. Last week, I tried installing a straight plug and then offset drilling with a small pilot bit. The results were more promising than anticipated, but as one would expect there was some bit drift since the rocker shaft drills more easily than a piece of Grade 5 steel rod. Still, that wasn't a defeat so much as a lesson.
I ran an idea past Elastic Man on the way to work one morning: "What if I made a small kerf lengthwise in the plug to act as a pilot of sorts? To help keep the pilot drill centered?" Stretch thought it was silly enough that it just might work. In the time since, I expanded on that idea. Since oil flow and pressure are major concerns at the rockers, I decided to kill two stones with one bird and clearance the plugs at a right angle to allow more flow around them. I made five dowels from a piece of 3/8" U-bolt rod and broke out the die grinder and rasp bit.
Right now, you're asking yourself, "Self, why didn't Regis just use pre-made 3/8" x 3/4" dowel pins?" Excellent question, Matilda, and I've got an even better answer: Dowels are somewhere between diamond and Wile E. Coyote on the toughness scale. Do you want to try and put a kerf in a hardened dowel with a hacksaw? I don't.
There was another potential benefit to this clearance approach: If there's any bit walk away from the shaft, the curve would guide it back to the kerf, a.k.a. the half-ass pilot... which would hopefully re-center it for the trip through the opposite side.
I made the kerf using a hacksaw, since it affords much better tool control than the air saw or sawzall. The kerf itself doesn't need to be very deep:
After welding the plugs into the shafts and making a small divot with the rasp to allow the drill to center on the kerf, I was ready to attempt drilling. Check out this drill rig, comprised of two no-name C-clamp locking pliers holding a Harbor Freight machinist's vise to a $120 Daftsmen offshore drill press. All the setup work was done by calibrated eyeball. Edwin L. Drake is either rolling in his grave or shedding a tear of joy out of pride. The first bit I used was a 5/64". It doesn't look centered, but it is. Merely a trick of the light due to the weld and the grinding around it.
I went through about four additional drill bits, including using a broken step drill at one point. I was at 1/4" which was past the break on the Unibit, so I thought that would self-center nicely and get me to 5/16". It did, but only on the top side. Rather than monkey with my setup, I switched to a regular 5/16" to finish that step. Things were going entirely too well, and soon I was ready for the final plunge, which used a 25/64" bit (3/8" is 24/64"):
Slap me on the ass and call me Sally, it worked. It f__kin' worked! The hole stayed straight and came through exactly where needed on the bottom side. The bolt was a beautiful fit with no rattle or slop, and the offset looked about perfect.
Of course, the litmus test here is whether I can install the stand. With the bolt hole being that close to the bolt size, if it were off even a hair it wouldn't go through the Sharp stand. It did, beautifully--almost like it was made for it, which it was.
OK, so you're saying I got lucky. Maybe, but obviously my luck is on a tear because I got repeatable results with the next hole. It was more of a challenge because the plug/dowel was about 1/16" too short and the kerf moved a bit on the first weld, but I was still able to make it work.
The other three dowels for this shaft are already made, although the end plugs are not clearanced for oil since it's not a concern. I'll get after the remaining plugs (and the other shaft) tomorrow. I did knock out the end plugs to facilitate cleaning out all the chips and drilling oil so I'll have to get another set of those for each shaft.
I also tried to get a good photo of what the inside of the shaft looks like with the plugs in place, but it was nearly impossible. So I took the best one and manipulated it in software to help give you an idea of the oil's-eye view. It's not a great photo but you can see the light coming through the shaft. There's no bolt installed in the photo but with one in place there's still more than 1/16" between it and the hollowed-out part of the dowel visible to the right, plus room for more oil on the other (left) side. I don't foresee any flow-related problems; in fact I expect it to work better than the old hogged-out shafts.
This was quite a time-consuming process. Due to the relatively short stroke of my drill press in relation to the work, I had to move the table on virtually every drill-bit change. A lot of time was spent checking and re-checking center (off center?) to make sure I wasn't about to destroy my progress. Also, the chuck key holder is on the RH side of the drill press, so I never put the key back in its proper place (I'm left-handed) and spend a lot of time looking for it. Regardless, I say it was time well spent because it worked... it f__kin' worked!
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Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
If one is not familiar with the layout in that hellhole, entering basically means playing hopscotch with your life. There are many ways to die foolishly in my garage.Excellent!
As much as I enjoy reading your posts, and seeing the work you do, the most-entertaining aspects are always the background settings in the pics...
b-body-bob
Well-known member
"Hopscotch" is a good description of how you have to get through my garage too. Take a few steps, then dodge something. Wash rinse repeat. I really need to clean the place out - it's all worth money but in my world it's not worth the hassle of shipping it. So it's probably not going anywhere.If one is not familiar with the layout in that hellhole, entering basically means playing hopscotch with your life. There are many ways to die foolishly in my garage.
Hold my beer... my problem is that most of the stuff in the way has nothing to do with cars.If one is not familiar with the layout in that hellhole, entering basically means playing hopscotch with your life. There are many ways to die foolishly in my garage.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
Valentine decided this morning was a good one to launch an offensive over who should be alpha in the pack (she's pretty feisty when she wants to play). During this epic struggle (basic rough-housing), a carton that's been near the front door for many years, often used as a doorstop, got tipped. After the battle was won, my adversary was banished from the kingdom (she wanted to go outside) and I cleaned up the contents of the spilled box.
As is par for the course (and sorta predicted by @thrashingcows), while picking up the various smaller packages I noticed these two in particular:
I'll save you the internet search: They're NOS Crane rocker-arm adjusters, two sets, still in the plastic wrap. Judging by the dates on the boxes, I probably bought them around the time I realized the Harland Sharp W2 rockers were out of the question due to lack of adequate valve-to-piston clearance.
Of course, I have the Smith Bros. set ordered too. I'm convinced, though, that I would not have found these had I not already ordered those. Once again: I'd rather have too many than not enough.
There was also a set of ARP rod bolts for B/RB, an ARP Pro Series 8-bolt flywheel fastener set, and a Comp Cams timing set for 3-bolt B/RB camshafts (yes, it's a chain). Cool... 440 stuff I don't need to buy (again)!
As is par for the course (and sorta predicted by @thrashingcows), while picking up the various smaller packages I noticed these two in particular:
I'll save you the internet search: They're NOS Crane rocker-arm adjusters, two sets, still in the plastic wrap. Judging by the dates on the boxes, I probably bought them around the time I realized the Harland Sharp W2 rockers were out of the question due to lack of adequate valve-to-piston clearance.
Of course, I have the Smith Bros. set ordered too. I'm convinced, though, that I would not have found these had I not already ordered those. Once again: I'd rather have too many than not enough.
There was also a set of ARP rod bolts for B/RB, an ARP Pro Series 8-bolt flywheel fastener set, and a Comp Cams timing set for 3-bolt B/RB camshafts (yes, it's a chain). Cool... 440 stuff I don't need to buy (again)!
68R/T
I got drunk and swallowed my teeth, now
HeeeMee...
b-body-bob
Well-known member
You should come up with a keyword and use it consistently when you post about buying stuff. Then you can use the forum as sort of an inventory system by searching for the keyword.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
Actually, in this case they're for a small-block stroker crank which has the same bolt pattern and uses a 130T '70-71 Hemi flywheel, which I also have.HeeeMee...
Probably better would be posting every time I run across something I didn't know I had. That happens a lot but I only post about it when it's something I've already ordered again.
The big problem is I tend to plan ahead, then forget that I did so. I knew Crane was long gone when I ordered those adjusters so what was around wouldn't last forever. I kind of wish I'd ordered more, though I'm currently covered. I have a lot of parts like that; if I know something's gone or going away I'll stock up now. It beats paying 10x as much when I find out I need one in several years. Call me a hoarder; I prefer to think of myself as the ant in Aesop's fable. Winter's coming, grasshopper.
In April 2020, I made a concerted effort to box up a ton of stuff and label each box with its contents. That's cut down quite a bit on the "Santa was here!" aspect of my basement but obviously I didn't get everything. My garage is still a treasure trove awaiting full discovery, but that is more akin to an archeological dig than Christmas day or an Easter-egg hunt.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
Two weeks later and still no pushrods. So much for "90% of orders ship the next day!" It took them two days just to respond to an e-mail (sent over a week ago) asking about the status of my order. They were supposed to ship out by the end of the week. Still no tracking number, no charge to my card, and not a word from them since.
These parts had better be f__kin' spectacular, because Smith Brothers' customer service is really not impressing me in the least so far.
These parts had better be f__kin' spectacular, because Smith Brothers' customer service is really not impressing me in the least so far.