I find that surprising, to be honest. My impression of his geometry-correction kits were that they're glorified shims. If you're still using the stock shaft retainers, how far they reasonably move? I'm not doubting Mike whatsoever--he knows his stuff--I just can't work it out in my head.Also, if I were to try to use one of his relocation kits on the 273 rockers, I have to take the heads back off because once the rockers are moved the pushrods get into the top of the pushrod tunnel in the head. Of course they do.
You'd be way ahead of the game with a 1.5" drum that fits in your drill or drill press. You're already at approximately the right diameter, and a nice half-round shape is a beautiful thing. Don't forget to check clearance all the way through the rocker travel.He also suggested that if I didn't want to grind on the rockers I could change the seat/spring/retainer to a smaller diameter, but that's not going to be cheap and I already own a die grinder and 60-grit grinding cookies.
Not an urban legend a'tall. The lift has very little to do with it. It's more about lubrication, valve spring pressure and rate of lift. There's not much you can do about the latter two at this point, but if you've got AMC lifters (you most likely do) and hollow pushrods drilled on the end, you're more than halfway home. The OE pushrod ends were solid, and OE lifters didn't try to push oil up them. Current lifters are all of the AMC design to my knowledge, with an oil port at the bottom of the pushrod cup. Similarly, most every ball/ball pushrod out there is drilled for oil passage.Loosely related, is punching a pushrod through a stamped rocker an urban legend or is it reality? I will be using assembly line non-HD rockers. The cam's only got .505 lift and it shouldn't be a problem with RPMs limited to about 3k max during break-in. Maybe.
I find that surprising, to be honest. My impression of his geometry-correction kits were that they're glorified shims. If you're still using the stock shaft retainers, how far they reasonably move? I'm not doubting Mike whatsoever--he knows his stuff--I just can't work it out in my head.
"Don't forget to check clearance all the way through the rocker travel.' So you're telling me I have to take the springs off at least one valve to install checking springs. It's sounding more and more like buying the 273 rockers was a mistake that I should just pass on at this point.You'd be way ahead of the game with a 1.5" drum that fits in your drill or drill press. You're already at approximately the right diameter, and a nice half-round shape is a beautiful thing. Don't forget to check clearance all the way through the rocker travel.
I do have AMC lifters, but solid Mopar pushrods.Not an urban legend a'tall. The lift has very little to do with it. It's more about lubrication, valve spring pressure and rate of lift. There's not much you can do about the latter two at this point, but if you've got AMC lifters (you most likely do) and hollow pushrods drilled on the end, you're more than halfway home. The OE pushrod ends were solid, and OE lifters didn't try to push oil up them. Current lifters are all of the AMC design to my knowledge, with an oil port at the bottom of the pushrod cup. Similarly, most every ball/ball pushrod out there is drilled for oil passage.
I didn't notice anything wrong with them.Unless you see something fearsome in one of the pushrod sockets, I wouldn't sweat it. Put assembly lube at all the contact points, and once the engine gets up to break-in speed, there's oil flying everywhere anyhow. It'll lube the tips as designed.
I don't know the spring pressure on those heads, but I would not attempt to use whatever used stock pushrods you've got lying around for cam break-in. Original parts are pretty spindly, now fatigued, and a bent pushrod popping out jumping around inside an engine at 2,500RPM can go amazing places and accomplish astounding feats. Go right through cast iron, they can.
No, I'm telling you to grind out a pair of rockers, install them on the engine, rotate it twice to make sure you fully cycle both, and make sure they clear. You aren't going to wipe a lobe turning over the engine by hand."Don't forget to check clearance all the way through the rocker travel.' So you're telling me I have to take the springs off at least one valve to install checking springs. It's sounding more and more like buying the 273 rockers was a mistake that I should just pass on at this point.
Although it seems like the retainer and spring should be moving away from the contact point on the rocker as it travels down so if it's clear at the top it will be clear all the way down. And that involves trig again to show me if I'm wrong.
On my old W2 heads pushrod space really was at a premium due to the bizarre offset drilling for the rocker shafts. I used 5/16" chromoly pushrods, .080" wall. The seat pressure on those springs is higher than your open pressure. The pushrods all came out straight as an arrow. The new pushrods are 5/16" .080" as well with a new set of the same springs. I don't expect problems. Oversize is nice, and I now have enough clearance for 7/16" pushrods, but if 5/16" will do the job, I don't see a reason to add weight to the valvetrain.IIRC spring pressure is billed at 305 open or something like that.
I didn't look it up again but it seems like I've seen problems related to 3/8" pushrods getting into the tunnel also. I suppose cr-mo pushrods add strength to get around that.
It's no surprise they could tear something up. @ 2500 each one is opening @ ~20Hz.
Base circle is the same. I can't speak to the heads, since I don't have any. If they require a special-length pushrod, it should be something Edelbrock offers (or Comp, or someone). I'm not aware of anything, but I haven't looked either. But as far as "stock" pushrods go, the only application that comes to mind with adjustable rockers and juice lifters is the '70 340 Six Pack. Those had offset rockers but I'm not sure if that made a difference (since there's nothing with which to compare). All the adjustable-rocker 273s were solid-lifter engines. Comp does offer an "adjustable lifter hydraulic cam" option, but I don't know the length offhand. They're shorter than ball/ball 'rodsWhat are the chances I need something other than a factory length pushrod (7.550)? Could the heads be taller or the cam base circle smaller? My head hurts.
All the more reason to take the time and get the rocker train right rather than screwing around changing stuff after you've run it.I guess there's no big rush on figuring this out because I had thoughts of just leaving the intake gasket and bolts off until right before I stick the engine in so the lifters/cam gets a fresh dose of lube before I close it up. Up until that point I can change my mind on rockers and pushrods.
OK, I wasn't thinking, or more correctly, I was expecting to grind and check and grind some more and check again, and ... so in that case with checking springs I can just press the rocker down and see if it touches instead of rolling the engine over and over and over to do it. If I get a big head and decide I can take them down all at once, I will screw them up, guaranteed.No, I'm telling you to grind out a pair of rockers, install them on the engine, rotate it twice to make sure you fully cycle both, and make sure they clear. You aren't going to wipe a lobe turning over the engine by hand.
I was fairly certain they would be, just because the socket is lower on a solid lifter.The pushrods that came with it are too long.
A section of cutoff rocker shaft makes a great holder. 'Course, having murdered so many of those in the last few years I have a steady supply with which to work.I'll be shopping for sanding rolls and a holder today. The idea to use that on a drill press is a good one and will probably keep me from screwing this up, as I am prone to do.
I just had a look and it seems like blind clumsy Bob would be better off grinding with a tool that only grinds in one direction. The tip is right there and it could be bad if some 60 grit bit into that.You'd be way ahead of the game with a 1.5" drum that fits in your drill or drill press. You're already at approximately the right diameter, and a nice half-round shape is a beautiful thing. Don't forget to check clearance all the way through the rocker travel.
A regular mini tubing cutter will do it. I've cut solid steel rod with those things. The trick is to not try and crank it fully tight. Just snug it, give it a few turns around the tube, snug it again, repeat until it falls in two. The #1 reason those things "fail" is because people crank as hard as they can on the finger nut and end up smearing the wheel because it can't turn. Slow an' easy, just the way David Coverdale likes it.I need to cut one of those socket head pushrods down to make a measuring tool too. I don't know what I've got to make a clean straight cut in it. Maybe I can do it with a plumbing sized tubing cutter, but I'm skeptical. If it doesn't work I've also got the mega version that I bought to cut bike steerers down to size.
Excellent, thanks. I had thought of the pokey part of my digital caliper and checked it out. It's just a touch more than 5/32 like I expected.Cup/ball pushrods are usually measured from the bottom of the cup to the tip of the ball. If you're using the OE adjusters, you'll want 2 or 3 threads showing to ensure the cup won't hit the rocker arm. If you're using the longer Crane-style locknut adjusters that have the ball at the end of a longish neck, the threads should be approximately flush, but one thread showing won't kill anything.
With your chosen lifter(s) on the base circle of the cam, install and torque the rocker shaft retainer bolts on either side of the rocker(s) you're using. Install your adjustable pushrod, opening it by hand until you feel resistance. Tighten the locknuts so the length can't change, then double-check that you can spin the pushrod freely but cannot feel any play. Loosen the rocker shaft enough to remove the pushrod, and measure it...
...but how? There are a couple of ways, but most manufacturers want the effective length of the pushrod as described above. There are two ways to do this:
I usually check at least four pushrods, one near each corner (two intake, two exhaust) and average those numbers. That's to allow for production tolerances, since your deck may not be perfectly parallel to the crank or either head could have a slight angle to its deck surface. On the W2 engine I did eight, simply because of the rocker-arm offset on the intakes (in case I needed two different-length pushrods) even though I know the block was decked to parallel and the heads were straight.
- Measure the overall length from the ball tip to the edge of the pushrod cup. Now use the depth-measuring part of your caliper to measure the pushrod cup's depth. Subtract the second number from the first and you've got your effective length within a few thousandths.
- Set a 5/16"-diameter individual bearing ball in the adjuster cup. Measure overall length between ball tips. Using your caliper, get a precise measurement of the ball's diameter, and subtract that number from your OAL. That's you're effective length, and about as accurate as you're going to get.
By the way, this process is actually easier with your final valvesprings installed, simply because threading the pushrod longer easily overcomes most checking springs. You ain't doin' that with your fingers on the real deal, although with a hydraulic cam you could start depressing the lifter cup (but you'd feel it). Also, once you've got the first one done, the rest go pretty quickly since your adjustable pushrod's already in the neighborhood lengthwise.
If you find an off-the-shelf pushrod within, say, .040" of your average number, hit the "order" button after you've verified they measure by effective length (and ensured cup-to-rocker clearance). Check that information on the manufacturer's website; don't trust Summit/Jeg's/Mancini/Hughes to get it right.
As a wild-ass guess, I'm going to say you need something between 7.050"-7.250" effective length depending on the adjusters you have (longer for OE). The Comp 7821s are too long despite being advertised for this application, and near as I can tell they don't make one that fits. Edelbrock shows a 6.900" length (9623); the next I could find was Melling MPR-157 @ 7.234". Melling uses effective length. Smith Bros and OE Pushrods come to mind for custom (the latter being less expensive), but it's possible Mike @ B3 has a line on something that'll work.