My 71 Duster work in progress

Too late to worry about it now.

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I wasn't kidding when I said the one piece fit the rear cap better than the Fel-Pro.

Milodon:
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Fel-Pro:
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It will be fine.
 
I guess you'll know eventually. I don't claim to know; depending on who's complaining there's either a difference in how it fits the rear of the oil pan (not the rear cap) or there's something different up near the timing cover. I don't have two pans I can easily compare, since my only Magnum pan is bolted to an engine on a cradle.
 
I didn't see much difference in the way the two parts look as far as the end pieces go. I'll try to remember to fill the pan before installing the engine but that might not show a leak if there is one.

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I torqued the heads last night. 100 lb/ft * 20 bolts - 1 ton/ft. I didn't think I had it in me, and almost didn't.

It looks like the factory rockers barely clear the valve springs.

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The 273 rockers didn't clear at all so those are on the shelf until later.
 
I almost forgot about this.

I was spraying paint Sunday and opened the overhead door. A fly got in.

I could just see the little bastard getting stuck in cam lube and dying inside the engine just out of sight, so I tried to kill it, but no joy.

With the heads/pan on it it doesn't fit in a contractor bag anymore, so I stacked the intake and valve covers on it to try to keep it out.

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Looks like I should've closed off the fuel pump too.
 
So I started researching what I need to do for rockers so I called Mike at B3. Taking everything into account, he suggested that I might be better off to go ahead and use the stamped rockers for break-in because the reduced ratio is easier on the cam/lifters and there is no more delay modifying the 273 rockers to work on the E-heads or waiting on pushrods. Once it's broken in, I can grind on the 273 rockers (do you feel lucky, punk?) and move over to those.

Also, if I were to try to use one of his relocation kits on the 273 rockers, I have to take the heads back off because once the rockers are moved the pushrods get into the top of the pushrod tunnel in the head. Of course they do.

He also suggested that if I didn't want to grind on the rockers I could change the seat/spring/retainer to a smaller diameter, but that's not going to be cheap and I already own a die grinder and 60-grit grinding cookies.

It's just a mildly hot street engine, so that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Loosely related, is punching a pushrod through a stamped rocker an urban legend or is it reality? I will be using assembly line non-HD rockers. The cam's only got .505 lift and it shouldn't be a problem with RPMs limited to about 3k max during break-in. Maybe.
 
Also, if I were to try to use one of his relocation kits on the 273 rockers, I have to take the heads back off because once the rockers are moved the pushrods get into the top of the pushrod tunnel in the head. Of course they do.
I find that surprising, to be honest. My impression of his geometry-correction kits were that they're glorified shims. If you're still using the stock shaft retainers, how far they reasonably move? I'm not doubting Mike whatsoever--he knows his stuff--I just can't work it out in my head.

He also suggested that if I didn't want to grind on the rockers I could change the seat/spring/retainer to a smaller diameter, but that's not going to be cheap and I already own a die grinder and 60-grit grinding cookies.
You'd be way ahead of the game with a 1.5" drum that fits in your drill or drill press. You're already at approximately the right diameter, and a nice half-round shape is a beautiful thing. Don't forget to check clearance all the way through the rocker travel.

Loosely related, is punching a pushrod through a stamped rocker an urban legend or is it reality? I will be using assembly line non-HD rockers. The cam's only got .505 lift and it shouldn't be a problem with RPMs limited to about 3k max during break-in. Maybe.
Not an urban legend a'tall. The lift has very little to do with it. It's more about lubrication, valve spring pressure and rate of lift. There's not much you can do about the latter two at this point, but if you've got AMC lifters (you most likely do) and hollow pushrods drilled on the end, you're more than halfway home. The OE pushrod ends were solid, and OE lifters didn't try to push oil up them. Current lifters are all of the AMC design to my knowledge, with an oil port at the bottom of the pushrod cup. Similarly, most every ball/ball pushrod out there is drilled for oil passage.

Unless you see something fearsome in one of the pushrod sockets, I wouldn't sweat it. Put assembly lube at all the contact points, and once the engine gets up to break-in speed, there's oil flying everywhere anyhow. It'll lube the tips as designed.

I don't know the spring pressure on those heads, but I would not attempt to use whatever used stock pushrods you've got lying around for cam break-in. Original parts are pretty spindly, now fatigued, and a bent pushrod popping out jumping around inside an engine at 2,500RPM can go amazing places and accomplish astounding feats. Go right through cast iron, they can.
 
I find that surprising, to be honest. My impression of his geometry-correction kits were that they're glorified shims. If you're still using the stock shaft retainers, how far they reasonably move? I'm not doubting Mike whatsoever--he knows his stuff--I just can't work it out in my head.

That was the way I understood it too - shims. You'd have to take measurements and do the trig to know the effect for sure. I'll just take his word on it.

FWIW there are shims under the shafts on my 440, which I was told were needed due to shaving the heads. It's got adjustable rockers on it now so I guess those are no longer strictly needed if they ever were.

You'd be way ahead of the game with a 1.5" drum that fits in your drill or drill press. You're already at approximately the right diameter, and a nice half-round shape is a beautiful thing. Don't forget to check clearance all the way through the rocker travel.
"Don't forget to check clearance all the way through the rocker travel.' So you're telling me I have to take the springs off at least one valve to install checking springs. It's sounding more and more like buying the 273 rockers was a mistake that I should just pass on at this point.

Although it seems like the retainer and spring should be moving away from the contact point on the rocker as it travels down so if it's clear at the top it will be clear all the way down. And that involves trig again to show me if I'm wrong.

Not an urban legend a'tall. The lift has very little to do with it. It's more about lubrication, valve spring pressure and rate of lift. There's not much you can do about the latter two at this point, but if you've got AMC lifters (you most likely do) and hollow pushrods drilled on the end, you're more than halfway home. The OE pushrod ends were solid, and OE lifters didn't try to push oil up them. Current lifters are all of the AMC design to my knowledge, with an oil port at the bottom of the pushrod cup. Similarly, most every ball/ball pushrod out there is drilled for oil passage.
I do have AMC lifters, but solid Mopar pushrods.

Unless you see something fearsome in one of the pushrod sockets, I wouldn't sweat it. Put assembly lube at all the contact points, and once the engine gets up to break-in speed, there's oil flying everywhere anyhow. It'll lube the tips as designed.
I didn't notice anything wrong with them.

I don't know the spring pressure on those heads, but I would not attempt to use whatever used stock pushrods you've got lying around for cam break-in. Original parts are pretty spindly, now fatigued, and a bent pushrod popping out jumping around inside an engine at 2,500RPM can go amazing places and accomplish astounding feats. Go right through cast iron, they can.

IIRC spring pressure is billed at 305 open or something like that.

I didn't look it up again but it seems like I've seen problems related to 3/8" pushrods getting into the tunnel also. I suppose cr-mo pushrods add strength to get around that.

It's no surprise they could tear something up. @ 2500 each one is opening @ ~20Hz.

What are the chances I need something other than a factory length pushrod (7.550)? Could the heads be taller or the cam base circle smaller? My head hurts.

I guess there's no big rush on figuring this out because I had thoughts of just leaving the intake gasket and bolts off until right before I stick the engine in so the lifters/cam gets a fresh dose of lube before I close it up. Up until that point I can change my mind on rockers and pushrods.
 
"Don't forget to check clearance all the way through the rocker travel.' So you're telling me I have to take the springs off at least one valve to install checking springs. It's sounding more and more like buying the 273 rockers was a mistake that I should just pass on at this point.

Although it seems like the retainer and spring should be moving away from the contact point on the rocker as it travels down so if it's clear at the top it will be clear all the way down. And that involves trig again to show me if I'm wrong.
No, I'm telling you to grind out a pair of rockers, install them on the engine, rotate it twice to make sure you fully cycle both, and make sure they clear. You aren't going to wipe a lobe turning over the engine by hand.

Buying the rockers wasn't a mistake. Thinking they would naturally clear oversize valve springs on aftermarket heads may have been, though. When you're mixing and matching you have to assume some modification and massage will be required. If you want everything to bolt together like a stock engine, build a stock engine.

What would be a mistake would be running stock stamped rocker arms on the engine for anything but cam break-in. Even then, I'd be clearancing the adjustable rockers and getting them ready for the break-in run. There's no point in taking stuff apart afterward to change parts, especially not with valve covers that deform if you cough on them.

IIRC spring pressure is billed at 305 open or something like that.

I didn't look it up again but it seems like I've seen problems related to 3/8" pushrods getting into the tunnel also. I suppose cr-mo pushrods add strength to get around that.

It's no surprise they could tear something up. @ 2500 each one is opening @ ~20Hz.
On my old W2 heads pushrod space really was at a premium due to the bizarre offset drilling for the rocker shafts. I used 5/16" chromoly pushrods, .080" wall. The seat pressure on those springs is higher than your open pressure. The pushrods all came out straight as an arrow. The new pushrods are 5/16" .080" as well with a new set of the same springs. I don't expect problems. Oversize is nice, and I now have enough clearance for 7/16" pushrods, but if 5/16" will do the job, I don't see a reason to add weight to the valvetrain.

What are the chances I need something other than a factory length pushrod (7.550)? Could the heads be taller or the cam base circle smaller? My head hurts.
Base circle is the same. I can't speak to the heads, since I don't have any. If they require a special-length pushrod, it should be something Edelbrock offers (or Comp, or someone). I'm not aware of anything, but I haven't looked either. But as far as "stock" pushrods go, the only application that comes to mind with adjustable rockers and juice lifters is the '70 340 Six Pack. Those had offset rockers but I'm not sure if that made a difference (since there's nothing with which to compare). All the adjustable-rocker 273s were solid-lifter engines. Comp does offer an "adjustable lifter hydraulic cam" option, but I don't know the length offhand. They're shorter than ball/ball 'rods

I'm at the point now where I use adjustable pushrods for every build to check for the proper length. I bought Trick Flow checking pushrods because those were the least-expensive ones I could find in cup/ball. If I can get something off-the-shelf within about .020"-.030" of my measured results, I'll run 'em. Otherwise, I'm on the phone to order custom.

I guess there's no big rush on figuring this out because I had thoughts of just leaving the intake gasket and bolts off until right before I stick the engine in so the lifters/cam gets a fresh dose of lube before I close it up. Up until that point I can change my mind on rockers and pushrods.
All the more reason to take the time and get the rocker train right rather than screwing around changing stuff after you've run it.
 
No, I'm telling you to grind out a pair of rockers, install them on the engine, rotate it twice to make sure you fully cycle both, and make sure they clear. You aren't going to wipe a lobe turning over the engine by hand.
OK, I wasn't thinking, or more correctly, I was expecting to grind and check and grind some more and check again, and ... so in that case with checking springs I can just press the rocker down and see if it touches instead of rolling the engine over and over and over to do it. If I get a big head and decide I can take them down all at once, I will screw them up, guaranteed.

FWIW Mike said he likes to have .030 clearance between the rocker and the retainer.

Buying new pushrods for the stamped rockers doesn't make sense because I'll still need to buy new pushrods for the adjustables. Unless the ones that came with them are actually for a hydraulic cam. IIRC they are the same length as the factory ones were except they have a cup on one end. Anyway, it does seem like I should go ahead and modify the rockers before break-in.

At least that gives me something to do.
 
There are 4-5 rockers that have at least .035 clearance (welding wire), the others have less. There are two that actually hit the retainer.

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The pushrods that came with it are too long.

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I'll be shopping for sanding rolls and a holder today. The idea to use that on a drill press is a good one and will probably keep me from screwing this up, as I am prone to do.
 
The pushrods that came with it are too long.
I was fairly certain they would be, just because the socket is lower on a solid lifter.

I'll be shopping for sanding rolls and a holder today. The idea to use that on a drill press is a good one and will probably keep me from screwing this up, as I am prone to do.
A section of cutoff rocker shaft makes a great holder. 'Course, having murdered so many of those in the last few years I have a steady supply with which to work. 🫤
 
You'd be way ahead of the game with a 1.5" drum that fits in your drill or drill press. You're already at approximately the right diameter, and a nice half-round shape is a beautiful thing. Don't forget to check clearance all the way through the rocker travel.
I just had a look and it seems like blind clumsy Bob would be better off grinding with a tool that only grinds in one direction. The tip is right there and it could be bad if some 60 grit bit into that.

It looks to me like the die grinder is the tool of choice, taking care to taper it in and avoid stress risers. I've got a finger sized belt sander thing but it's too wide to take a chance with.

I took 3 rockers off just now, two that were tight but OK, and one that was jamming into the retainer. It looks like a large part of it is a casting line right there, and it seemed the uglier they were the tighter the interference was. This is another guy's photo where you can see it.

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I need to cut one of those socket head pushrods down to make a measuring tool too. I don't know what I've got to make a clean straight cut in it. Maybe I can do it with a plumbing sized tubing cutter, but I'm skeptical. If it doesn't work I've also got the mega version that I bought to cut bike steerers down to size.
 
I need to cut one of those socket head pushrods down to make a measuring tool too. I don't know what I've got to make a clean straight cut in it. Maybe I can do it with a plumbing sized tubing cutter, but I'm skeptical. If it doesn't work I've also got the mega version that I bought to cut bike steerers down to size.
A regular mini tubing cutter will do it. I've cut solid steel rod with those things. The trick is to not try and crank it fully tight. Just snug it, give it a few turns around the tube, snug it again, repeat until it falls in two. The #1 reason those things "fail" is because people crank as hard as they can on the finger nut and end up smearing the wheel because it can't turn. Slow an' easy, just the way David Coverdale likes it.
 
It's kind of a pain for the first little bit, it was like there was some surface hardening that I had to wear through before the cutting started. It's also great fun holding it. Too small for the pipe clamp of my vise so I ended up using a pair of channel locks and my cramping hand to get it done.

I ended up cutting two because on the first one I cut too low and the tap ran into the inside of the ball fitting. I cut 1-1/2" out of the middle and need to pick up some 1/4-20 nuts to finish it. The tap runs in about an inch on the ball end, about twice that on the other end. It needs to set up about 1/2" shorter than it was originally.

This is the XL version.

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I've been about 2 hours grinding clearance into 8 rockers. They clear, but they don't have anywhere near .035. It definitely helped me to realize that I need a hose manifold at the bench so I can use more than one tool without disconnecting
.
 
All the rockers are clearing the springs now, not as much as I'd like but OTOH they're not ground too thin either.

I gave my pushrod tool a quick check. This isn't done right or anything, 7-3/8" seems too long from what I've seen mentioned as the pushrod length. It was 7-1/2 to start with and it looked more than 1/8" too long at the time. I backed the adjuster off some though so that could be the difference too.

Now to read up on how to do it right.

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Cup/ball pushrods are usually measured from the bottom of the cup to the tip of the ball. If you're using the OE adjusters, you'll want 2 or 3 threads showing to ensure the cup won't hit the rocker arm. If you're using the longer Crane-style locknut adjusters that have the ball at the end of a longish neck, the threads should be approximately flush, but one thread showing won't kill anything.
With your chosen lifter(s) on the base circle of the cam, install and torque the rocker shaft retainer bolts on either side of the rocker(s) you're using. Install your adjustable pushrod, opening it by hand until you feel resistance. Tighten the locknuts so the length can't change, then double-check that you can spin the pushrod freely but cannot feel any play. Loosen the rocker shaft enough to remove the pushrod, and measure it...

...but how? There are a couple of ways, but most manufacturers want the effective length of the pushrod as described above. There are two ways to do this:
  • Measure the overall length from the ball tip to the edge of the pushrod cup. Now use the depth-measuring part of your caliper to measure the pushrod cup's depth. Subtract the second number from the first and you've got your effective length within a few thousandths.
  • Set a 5/16"-diameter individual bearing ball in the adjuster cup. Measure overall length between ball tips. Using your caliper, get a precise measurement of the ball's diameter, and subtract that number from your OAL. That's you're effective length, and about as accurate as you're going to get.
I usually check at least four pushrods, one near each corner (two intake, two exhaust) and average those numbers. That's to allow for production tolerances, since your deck may not be perfectly parallel to the crank or either head could have a slight angle to its deck surface. On the W2 engine I did eight, simply because of the rocker-arm offset on the intakes (in case I needed two different-length pushrods) even though I know the block was decked to parallel and the heads were straight.
By the way, this process is actually easier with your final valvesprings installed, simply because threading the pushrod longer easily overcomes most checking springs. You ain't doin' that with your fingers on the real deal, although with a hydraulic cam you could start depressing the lifter cup (but you'd feel it). Also, once you've got the first one done, the rest go pretty quickly since your adjustable pushrod's already in the neighborhood lengthwise.
If you find an off-the-shelf pushrod within, say, .040" of your average number, hit the "order" button after you've verified they measure by effective length (and ensured cup-to-rocker clearance). Check that information on the manufacturer's website; don't trust Summit/Jeg's/Mancini/Hughes to get it right.

As a wild-ass guess, I'm going to say you need something between 7.050"-7.250" effective length depending on the adjusters you have (longer for OE). The Comp 7821s are too long despite being advertised for this application, and near as I can tell they don't make one that fits. Edelbrock shows a 6.900" length (9623); the next I could find was Melling MPR-157 @ 7.234". Melling uses effective length. Smith Bros and OE Pushrods come to mind for custom (the latter being less expensive), but it's possible Mike @ B3 has a line on something that'll work.
 
Cup/ball pushrods are usually measured from the bottom of the cup to the tip of the ball. If you're using the OE adjusters, you'll want 2 or 3 threads showing to ensure the cup won't hit the rocker arm. If you're using the longer Crane-style locknut adjusters that have the ball at the end of a longish neck, the threads should be approximately flush, but one thread showing won't kill anything.
With your chosen lifter(s) on the base circle of the cam, install and torque the rocker shaft retainer bolts on either side of the rocker(s) you're using. Install your adjustable pushrod, opening it by hand until you feel resistance. Tighten the locknuts so the length can't change, then double-check that you can spin the pushrod freely but cannot feel any play. Loosen the rocker shaft enough to remove the pushrod, and measure it...

...but how? There are a couple of ways, but most manufacturers want the effective length of the pushrod as described above. There are two ways to do this:
  • Measure the overall length from the ball tip to the edge of the pushrod cup. Now use the depth-measuring part of your caliper to measure the pushrod cup's depth. Subtract the second number from the first and you've got your effective length within a few thousandths.
  • Set a 5/16"-diameter individual bearing ball in the adjuster cup. Measure overall length between ball tips. Using your caliper, get a precise measurement of the ball's diameter, and subtract that number from your OAL. That's you're effective length, and about as accurate as you're going to get.
I usually check at least four pushrods, one near each corner (two intake, two exhaust) and average those numbers. That's to allow for production tolerances, since your deck may not be perfectly parallel to the crank or either head could have a slight angle to its deck surface. On the W2 engine I did eight, simply because of the rocker-arm offset on the intakes (in case I needed two different-length pushrods) even though I know the block was decked to parallel and the heads were straight.
By the way, this process is actually easier with your final valvesprings installed, simply because threading the pushrod longer easily overcomes most checking springs. You ain't doin' that with your fingers on the real deal, although with a hydraulic cam you could start depressing the lifter cup (but you'd feel it). Also, once you've got the first one done, the rest go pretty quickly since your adjustable pushrod's already in the neighborhood lengthwise.
If you find an off-the-shelf pushrod within, say, .040" of your average number, hit the "order" button after you've verified they measure by effective length (and ensured cup-to-rocker clearance). Check that information on the manufacturer's website; don't trust Summit/Jeg's/Mancini/Hughes to get it right.

As a wild-ass guess, I'm going to say you need something between 7.050"-7.250" effective length depending on the adjusters you have (longer for OE). The Comp 7821s are too long despite being advertised for this application, and near as I can tell they don't make one that fits. Edelbrock shows a 6.900" length (9623); the next I could find was Melling MPR-157 @ 7.234". Melling uses effective length. Smith Bros and OE Pushrods come to mind for custom (the latter being less expensive), but it's possible Mike @ B3 has a line on something that'll work.
Excellent, thanks. I had thought of the pokey part of my digital caliper and checked it out. It's just a touch more than 5/32 like I expected.

I had backed the one adjuster up until there were no threads showing - just because that's the one thing I remembered, not necessarily because it applies to a ball adjuster. The others are all about 2 threads out right now. I was just trying to get a feel for it. It seems important that the lock nuts are snug all the time or it gets wobbly. FWIW I used 1/4-20 since that's what the all-thread I have on hand is. 1/4x28 might be less wobbly I dunno.

Today's job is replacing a 10 2x4 wide section of deck that rotted through. Gina tends to stack bags of fertilizer/dirt up and if they're not on a pallet it eventually causes trouble. But this is the first work I've had to do on it and we've lived here 23 years so I can't complain. Except about the heat. I will definitely complain about that.
 

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