b-body-bob
Well-known member
I've got both an aluminum bellhousing and a timing cover that had basically no factory paint left on them. There's probably no rhyme or reason to it.
My 71 Duster work in progress
- Thread starter b-body-bob
- Start date
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
Some of that is affected by surface smoothness. The bells I have with paint on 'em are fairly rough castings. I also have a couple with no paint whatsoever, but those are later and much smoother. Chrysler may have also changed whether they painted engines with the bells installed. I have at least three truck overdrive bells; none of them have paint (but one is NOS, so that's expected).
b-body-bob
Well-known member
The waterpump is so smooth it almost looks chromed. Ditto for the heads but I'm not gonna paint those. The bell I have that has all the paint worn off is definitely smooth IIRC it's for a 72+.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
As I recall there's some kind of tomfoolery required on the Speedmaster heads to fit the alternator. I think there's grinding involved on the front of the passenger's side casting. Once that's sorted, they'll get sandblasted, baked, and painted. I'm not a fan of the look of raw aluminum engine parts, but I'm even less a fan of the chalky oxidation that's inevitable on uncoated aluminum in relatively short order.
It's just a preference, nothing more. My idea of cleaning a motor involves Engine Brite and a pressure washer.
It's just a preference, nothing more. My idea of cleaning a motor involves Engine Brite and a pressure washer.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
I found the duplicolor etch primer you mentioned locally so I picked up a can to use on the timing cover and oil pan. I'm going to stick with not painting the water pump, heads, and intake.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
I am just going on the record as saying that Burt book on small blocks isn't worth the paper it's printed on. First - there is no table of torque specs, and I'm not convinced they're even all buried in onesies and twosies somewhere in the text either.
The latest is the photo of an oil pump he recommends taking apart. OK. Then I notice this
WTF dude?
No mention of what specific manufacturer and model he's working on. Could be an HV - mine isn't, it's an M-72 - but the book doesn't say one way or the other.
What I was actually looking for when I noticed that is the bypass valve in the text under that photo. Is there a bypass valve visible in that shot? I don't think so, alt least nothing that I can push back and forth with a small screwdriver like the book directs me to do..
This book sucks. I'm going to burn it once I'm done with this engine.
The latest is the photo of an oil pump he recommends taking apart. OK. Then I notice this
WTF dude?
No mention of what specific manufacturer and model he's working on. Could be an HV - mine isn't, it's an M-72 - but the book doesn't say one way or the other.
What I was actually looking for when I noticed that is the bypass valve in the text under that photo. Is there a bypass valve visible in that shot? I don't think so, alt least nothing that I can push back and forth with a small screwdriver like the book directs me to do..
This book sucks. I'm going to burn it once I'm done with this engine.
Last edited:
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
I don't mean to laugh at your frustration, but it seems just about every book on Mopars out there is f__king worthless. The "restoration guides" are particularly bad. There's a reason I only use factory service manuals.
I've probably mentioned it in the past, but other than .pdf downloads on MyMopar-dot-com, they're also available on CD. The CD ones are more useful in terms of searching and such. What I like about either option is that I can print out the pages I need that day and if they get dirty or ripped, I didn't trash my treasured factory-issued manual. I can just toss the pages and reprint 'em.
Getting back to the bypass valve: I believe in his photo it's held in by the cotter pin just below your angry red circle. It's actually installed from the side. I see a cotter pin in the same general location on yours.
I've probably mentioned it in the past, but other than .pdf downloads on MyMopar-dot-com, they're also available on CD. The CD ones are more useful in terms of searching and such. What I like about either option is that I can print out the pages I need that day and if they get dirty or ripped, I didn't trash my treasured factory-issued manual. I can just toss the pages and reprint 'em.
Getting back to the bypass valve: I believe in his photo it's held in by the cotter pin just below your angry red circle. It's actually installed from the side. I see a cotter pin in the same general location on yours.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
That's what I thought was the bypass valve. There's no moving that. It's fine.
The rotor seems a little tight but I'm reluctant to start messing with a new part. The smallest feeler I've got is only .002 so not really small at all.
And, sure enough ... torque? We don't need to stinkin' torque
and there's that extra hole again, outside the cover plate.
Recall the oil plug that I forgot to check on, under the rear main cap? I stuck a rod in from the top and it stopped 7-1/2" deep in that direction. That's about where the oil passage goes over to the filter. So it seems right.
Also I was going to put the timing cover and oil pan on before the heads. The book says do the heads first. My way avoids having the motor upside down with the lifters an pushrods in. I know it all holds everything in place, but it seems out of order to me. Maybe it is done to keep from dropping things into the engine that you can't easily get back out? The book wouldn't mention it, if it was.
The rotor seems a little tight but I'm reluctant to start messing with a new part. The smallest feeler I've got is only .002 so not really small at all.
And, sure enough ... torque? We don't need to stinkin' torque
and there's that extra hole again, outside the cover plate.
Recall the oil plug that I forgot to check on, under the rear main cap? I stuck a rod in from the top and it stopped 7-1/2" deep in that direction. That's about where the oil passage goes over to the filter. So it seems right.
Also I was going to put the timing cover and oil pan on before the heads. The book says do the heads first. My way avoids having the motor upside down with the lifters an pushrods in. I know it all holds everything in place, but it seems out of order to me. Maybe it is done to keep from dropping things into the engine that you can't easily get back out? The book wouldn't mention it, if it was.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
I'm trying to recall, but I think I did the oil pan fairly close to last. However, I didn't have any valvetrain installed beyond the camshaft itself. I did the lifters, pushrods and rockers just prior to installing the intake but the pan was in place. Then I had to modify the intake gaskets because the valve covers wouldn't clear 'em, which was nothing short of nightmarish. Remember the X-Acto blade snafu? It'll remain fresh in my mind: Test fit everything, even gaskets.
Or, y'know, you could just rest rags over the drainback holes over the cam. There's that. If anything bounces and goes through the front bulkhead holes to the timing chain area, God hates you and stamp collecting might be more to your favor.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
I've been painting, have the timing cover and water pump on, now on to the oil pump and pan.
I see the oil pickup should rest on the bottom of the pan and much fretting over that in the internet. But it looks to me that it will sit where it sits, because it comes out of the side of the pump and the shape of the tube means tightening/loosening it won't move it up and down. Once it's l;evel to the bottom of the pan, that's where it is.
I guess I should check it to be sure, but am I right that the only way to adjust the pickup to the pan would be to bend it? Seems pretty inaccurate to me.
I'm more worried about it being pipe thread so I need to take care to tighten it enough while not overtightening it and ending up 1/2 turn off and no way to finish it without backing off and starting over. I hate pipe thread for that reason.
I plan to use lock-tite on the pickup threads. Not sure why, since it's sitting on the bottom of the pan it can't loosen up. Maybe it's to seal the threads? Seems like I should do something there - don't want to put RTV on it or anything that can end up in the oil system. I've also got Permatex thread sealant.
I see the oil pickup should rest on the bottom of the pan and much fretting over that in the internet. But it looks to me that it will sit where it sits, because it comes out of the side of the pump and the shape of the tube means tightening/loosening it won't move it up and down. Once it's l;evel to the bottom of the pan, that's where it is.
I guess I should check it to be sure, but am I right that the only way to adjust the pickup to the pan would be to bend it? Seems pretty inaccurate to me.
I'm more worried about it being pipe thread so I need to take care to tighten it enough while not overtightening it and ending up 1/2 turn off and no way to finish it without backing off and starting over. I hate pipe thread for that reason.
I plan to use lock-tite on the pickup threads. Not sure why, since it's sitting on the bottom of the pan it can't loosen up. Maybe it's to seal the threads? Seems like I should do something there - don't want to put RTV on it or anything that can end up in the oil system. I've also got Permatex thread sealant.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
As I recall, the old DC book recommended the pickup sit a short distance above the bottom of the pan, maybe 1/8" or so, rather than right on it. I have always just tightened the pickup until it's level with the bottom of the pan, taken a measurement, and run it.
Yes, you'd have to bend it to get it closer, but at that point now the pickup is no longer parallel to the pan bottom. Does that matter? I dunno.
I don't tighten anything pipe thread until it's being final-tightened. If you get it perfect, remove it, and reinstall it the pickup will land in a different spot. NPT is funny like that. You can use threadlocker, but that then precludes thread sealant of any kind. One chemical per threaded fitting. PTFE anything won't allow threadlocker to work.
Yes, you'd have to bend it to get it closer, but at that point now the pickup is no longer parallel to the pan bottom. Does that matter? I dunno.
I don't tighten anything pipe thread until it's being final-tightened. If you get it perfect, remove it, and reinstall it the pickup will land in a different spot. NPT is funny like that. You can use threadlocker, but that then precludes thread sealant of any kind. One chemical per threaded fitting. PTFE anything won't allow threadlocker to work.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
I looked at the 73 FSM and it says it should touch the pan. Speculation abounds that it's to prevent cracking the tube. Also it seems there was a change to the /6 setup because there was a mystery noise attribited to the pickup somehow rattling around because it was above the pan. The factory pickup pulls in the side above the bottom so no problem there.
Do you have a preference for a sealant on the oil pickup? I haven't looked at the permatex but it should be good with oil. I know it's good with coolant. I've got a fresh tube of each, either way.
Once I've got the pan on I'm going to clean up the outside of the block and paint it orange since being upside down helps with paint getting on the deck surfaces. I just won't paint it all the way to the top, er, bottom, then roll it over and add a little masking paper and tape to finish it up before installing the heads.
Do you have a preference for a sealant on the oil pickup? I haven't looked at the permatex but it should be good with oil. I know it's good with coolant. I've got a fresh tube of each, either way.
Once I've got the pan on I'm going to clean up the outside of the block and paint it orange since being upside down helps with paint getting on the deck surfaces. I just won't paint it all the way to the top, er, bottom, then roll it over and add a little masking paper and tape to finish it up before installing the heads.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
I turned the pickup in to snug enough to stay put and the pan fits over it. Looking through the hole I could see it but not much else. Since there was no gasket on it and I'm using a rubber gasket that seems kind of thick, I was honestly kind of hoping the pan would sit on the pickup and not the pan rails. I'm going to try taping some coins on the pickup to try to figure out how close it is to the bottom. Measuring the pan and then the pickup looks like they're basically the same - about 7-1/4".
It's a factory pan "392" with replacement pump and pickup from Melling.
FWIW from the 69 FSM I mentioned as a 73 earlier:
Installation (1) Inspect alignment of oil strainer. Bottom of strainer must be parallel with the machined surface of the cylinder block. Bottom of strainer must touch bottom of oil pan.
I just don't see how I'm going to affect how deep the pickup is.
Also, the Permatex thread sealer is also a thread locker. I guess it will work, even though the package directions seem oriented toward things like power steering and transmission lines. It will kind of be in the oil, I'm unsure if the oil is that deep or not.
It's a factory pan "392" with replacement pump and pickup from Melling.
FWIW from the 69 FSM I mentioned as a 73 earlier:
Installation (1) Inspect alignment of oil strainer. Bottom of strainer must be parallel with the machined surface of the cylinder block. Bottom of strainer must touch bottom of oil pan.
I just don't see how I'm going to affect how deep the pickup is.
Also, the Permatex thread sealer is also a thread locker. I guess it will work, even though the package directions seem oriented toward things like power steering and transmission lines. It will kind of be in the oil, I'm unsure if the oil is that deep or not.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
If memory serves, that 1-piece rubber gasket is intended for Magnum 5.9L engines, so double-check its fit before you go too crazy. I believe there's an area in the rear that requires a copious amount of sealant to fill in the gaps, as the rear main cap is different on the Magnum design. I may be thinking of the 318/340 gasket, though. It also may apply to both.
I picked up a block of non-hardening modeling clay at a hobby store for a few bucks for stuff like this. I bought it to check valve to piston clearance on my 340. That was about five years ago and despite sitting out in the garage in torn plastic the whole time, it's still soft and usable. You can use Play-Doh, but it'll harden after a few weeks.
The pickup didn't change from 1970-'74 on LA engines (and indeed goes back several years prior) but it's hard to say how accurate the Melling is in duplicating the original. I've bought pan/pickup sets in the past and still not gotten the desired interference.
Yep, that it does. Then the Ramchargers and other factory racers wrote the Direct Connection Engines book and recommended a small gap beneath it, at least on big-blocks (with a longer pickup, no less). Would that affect 100K-mile reliability? It's possible, but there are thousands of air compressors out there with cast-iron plumbing on them, working several hours daily, that never crack the outlet pipe. Was every oil pan and pickup checked for clearance during assembly by Chrysler? I'll bet not. Maybe that explains some of the warranties they obviously had to do over the years. I can't say, but my '73 340 had OE cigarette butts stuck to the bottom of the pickup. It went 140,000+ miles and never suffered an oil-related failure.
Can the pickup head be twisted on the tube? I doubt it, but that might help a little bit if it's very close.
What I'd suggest is installing the pickup until it's not quite snug (it might be rather loose due to the nature of pipe threads), but is parallel to the pan rail. See if the pan sits against the pickup or the rail. If the loose pickup doesn't hit the pan, it certainly won't once it's tight. If it does hit, apply your thread sealant and go one turn further. Live with the results.
You can sweat this forever and try bending the pickup or denting the pan. Just remember: Never bend the pickup by pulling on it while it's installed in the pump. Threads are stress risers. If the pickup's going to crack, it'll do it while bending in a spot you can't easily see. You probably won't feel or hear it happen, either (it's worth noting that on a B/RB engine, you run the risk of cracking the block rather than the pickup). You'd want to put the pickup in a vise and bend it with a length of larger pipe. You could also cut the pickup, install a sleeve at the right height, and weld the sleeve solid. Make sure it's airtight, though.
If it's going to keep you up at night, you could try stacking Schumann dead-soft copper oil pump gaskets, but they're extremely thin (around .016" I think). Nobody makes actual LA oil pump spacers near as I can tell, leading me to believe it's not nearly the issue you believe.
That seems like the answer to your thread-sealant issue. It should be impervious to petroleum-base lubricants.
I find the bit about power-steering and transmission lines a bit strange since those usually use inverted-flare or O-ring seals, both of which have straight threads. Typical thread sealant (PTFE) is worthless on straight threads, which is why Chrysler used studs on exhaust-manifold fasteners drilled through to water. The seated stud shoulder seals somewhat like an inverted flare fitting, and the usual recommendation for better sealing in those applications is high-temp silicone, which nobody recommends for NPT.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
You're right about the gasket, or at least I've seen that noted before also. I've got the 4 piece deal from the gasket kit to fall back on if it's hinky.
I stopped at the dollar store and bought the cheapest toy they had with play-doh in it. It wasn't worth the hassle of going out of my way to a craft shop. I haven't done anything with it yet.
What I did do, is a) stick a level on the pan rail and b) stick a level on the pickup pipe. They sure seem horizontal to me. I turned it in one turn more, still hand tight, and at first I thought I had it, but then I pressed down on the pan and that turned the pickup to fit flat on the bottom of the pan. Clay will tell me if it actually is or not.
Also, the way that worked out, with the pickup first crooked then rotated, leads me to wonder if people might be kidding themselves that the pickup is actually closer and it's actually just rotated so the edge hits the pan, but the pickup itself is still in the same position relative to the pan.
Since it was loose, I picked the pan up and it looked like it had turned until it was perfectly flat to the bottom of the pan. Which you would expect. If it had been tight, it wouldn't have been easy to turn it and so in your mind, the pickup is closer to the bottom of the pan.
Am I making sense? Have I been thinking about it wrong from the start? Maybe.
Either way I still don't think turning it makes one bit of difference in the actual suction height of the pickup off the pan.
I measured things when I was going over it just now. The pan depth is 7-1/4 and the the pickup is 7-1/8 above the pan rail. If I go with the rubber gasket, it has metal eyelets at the bolt holes that are going to act as a spacer. Plus being rubber it should naturally be thicker than a paper gasket. So I can math it out and just put the deepest part of the pickup as close to that as possible. But the pickup's still going to be the same height as far as suction goes.
FWIW I took those measurements using a carpenter's square in this style.
I stopped at the dollar store and bought the cheapest toy they had with play-doh in it. It wasn't worth the hassle of going out of my way to a craft shop. I haven't done anything with it yet.
What I did do, is a) stick a level on the pan rail and b) stick a level on the pickup pipe. They sure seem horizontal to me. I turned it in one turn more, still hand tight, and at first I thought I had it, but then I pressed down on the pan and that turned the pickup to fit flat on the bottom of the pan. Clay will tell me if it actually is or not.
Also, the way that worked out, with the pickup first crooked then rotated, leads me to wonder if people might be kidding themselves that the pickup is actually closer and it's actually just rotated so the edge hits the pan, but the pickup itself is still in the same position relative to the pan.
Since it was loose, I picked the pan up and it looked like it had turned until it was perfectly flat to the bottom of the pan. Which you would expect. If it had been tight, it wouldn't have been easy to turn it and so in your mind, the pickup is closer to the bottom of the pan.
Am I making sense? Have I been thinking about it wrong from the start? Maybe.
Either way I still don't think turning it makes one bit of difference in the actual suction height of the pickup off the pan.
I measured things when I was going over it just now. The pan depth is 7-1/4 and the the pickup is 7-1/8 above the pan rail. If I go with the rubber gasket, it has metal eyelets at the bolt holes that are going to act as a spacer. Plus being rubber it should naturally be thicker than a paper gasket. So I can math it out and just put the deepest part of the pickup as close to that as possible. But the pickup's still going to be the same height as far as suction goes.
FWIW I took those measurements using a carpenter's square in this style.
RUSTY Cuda
In over my head!
Wow, I'm glad I don't know any better, I just tightened the pickup in & stuck the pan on.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
That was my first idea when I noticed there is no up and down adjustment, but I'm guilty of overthinking and ended up in the weeds. It's not unusual.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
FWIW the 1 piece gasket actually fit tighter than the Fel-Pro 4-piece style did.
I just looked it up and see it's a Milodon part, not a factory Magnum engine part
I'll tell you what, it was expensive at $48. I guess I felt it was worth it for the ease of not having to mess around with four separate gaskets.
I just looked it up and see it's a Milodon part, not a factory Magnum engine part
I'll tell you what, it was expensive at $48. I guess I felt it was worth it for the ease of not having to mess around with four separate gaskets.
| MIL41007 | Milodon Oil Pan Gaskets: Milodon 41007 One-Piece Oil Pan Gasket | 1 |
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
Tight may not always be better, and you'll want to double-check your fit based on Milodon's own website. Their application says "(1992-2003 Magnum Only)". Opinions online seem to be split as to whether it's a direct fit, but it seems that there are gaps left when trying to use a Magnum pan gasket on an LA engine. Scrolling down further in that thread there's a response that the "360LA" gasket Jeg's used to sell didn't fit either.
It seems like a simple solution: Put a small flashlight in the oil pan. With the block upright on the stand, install the pan and gasket with just a few bolts to hold them snug. Now take the pan off and turn the flashlight on, since you forgot that part. Reinstall the pan and look for light. From what I gather, the problem area is the timing cover but it can't hurt to check the rear as well.
It seems like a simple solution: Put a small flashlight in the oil pan. With the block upright on the stand, install the pan and gasket with just a few bolts to hold them snug. Now take the pan off and turn the flashlight on, since you forgot that part. Reinstall the pan and look for light. From what I gather, the problem area is the timing cover but it can't hurt to check the rear as well.