What are you working on?

[b-body-bob]

Hooray, a new water leak started in the crawlspace this morning. Went under and scoped it out and at least it's not on the side where I have to crawl to the other end and then back around to the leak..

There are other blue spots on the pipe that's leaking that will eventually turn into leaks. I'm going to replace about a 4' piece with SharkBites this time because that's the length of the partial stick I have on hand. I will use a standard shark bite on one end, and a slip-joint fitting on the other.

I'm gonna have to replace it all in PEX. Actually I should've done it already, but it's easy to put crawling in there on the back burner. Other than that I've got two hold-ups:

1: It's a crawlspace so I can't use a roll of pex to minimize the couplers. I would never get it to roll out and I think it would turn into a mess trying to strap it as it unrolls. The truck bed is only 7' long and I'm unsure if I can get 20' sticks back home. The house is 60' long x2 hot and cold with two baths and the kitchen connecting into the main lines that run end to end.

2. The fixtures all have the supply riser coming up an interior wall so there's no easy way to replace the endpoint of the runs. I've been told the vertical lines rarely leak, it's always the horizontal ones and it's caused by sediment build up or where somebody strapped copper with steel. I could sharkbite them from there into PEX, but that's expensive and unreliable. I could solder PEX couplers to the copper risers, but I've had no good luck with that in the past. At least the pipes are vertical so when the water's drained out, it's all drained out. I can't say for sure there's room to do that because they might be too close to a joist.

For now, I just want to get the water back on. Almost as much as I don't want to crawl back in there again.

 

[b-body-bob]

It's cobbed back together.

I started cutting the wrong pipe, stopped before it broke through, so I'm going to be back under sooner than later.

I gotta get that copper replaced. At least this leaky main run. There is patch after patch in it - about as many patches as original at this point. This one was patched before the leak, and I connected today's patch to a piece of original pipe (with blue spots on it) that goes into another sharkbite. It kind of freaked me out when the pipe turned after I cut it loose.

 

[Dr.Jass]

1: It's a crawlspace so I can't use a roll of pex to minimize the couplers. I would never get it to roll out and I think it would turn into a mess trying to strap it as it unrolls.

If there were a way to hug my basement, I would. I've learned to hate crawl spaces after a friend had constant plumbing issues in an added-on bath/laundry room where a crawl space was much less expensive than adding to the basement. Despite being maybe 10' from the furnace, those pipes would freeze multiple times a year. Whomever added said bathroom decided to only make the crawl space large enough for a pre-schooler to access, and the pipes ran the whole 12' span of the room. I had a 32" waist at the time and couldn't get in there. I eventually stopped helping and told him to call a professional. I don't know what the solution was, but if memory serves it was neither simple nor inexpensive.

 

[b-body-bob]

If there were a way to hug my basement, I would. I've learned to hate crawl spaces after a friend had constant plumbing issues in an added-on bath/laundry room where a crawl space was much less expensive than adding to the basement. Despite being maybe 10' from the furnace, those pipes would freeze multiple times a year. Whomever added said bathroom decided to only make the crawl space large enough for a pre-schooler to access, and the pipes ran the whole 12' span of the room. I had a 32" waist at the time and couldn't get in there. I eventually stopped helping and told him to call a professional. I don't know what the solution was, but if memory serves it was neither simple nor inexpensive.

This one is wide open but cut up by pipes, ducts, and wires. Then there's the standing water under there from past leaks that never dried up and the "sump" that is just the deepest part of the trench around one end of the house, directly under a bathroom at the 4" sewer exit. Can't wait for that to punk out. House built in the 50's so it has cast iron down there.

Our next-door house has a basement and I replumbed it with PEX from end to end. It ain't pretty but it puts hot to the left and cold to the right and doesn't leak, but the beauty part is I did it standing on a ladder.

I did not want this house 20+ years ago because of the crawl space. I will never make up with it. I'm dgoing to try to make the most of it though, since I'm going to be under there multiple days I'm going to run extension cords and lights the next time I'm under (Gina's idea), and set up a storehouse of sorts of couplings and crimps that I'm eventually going to need. The shorter the crawl is, the better.

FWIW I always complain about working on cars but all these years of scooting under on a creeper came in handy yesterday when I had to scoot under the center beam to get to the leak.

 

[b-body-bob]

I found the plumbing Reddit told a guy 4 years ago that he can put 2 20' stick of 1" in the back of a 5-1/2' bed. The Dakota's around 7' IIRC. I need to haul 6 20' sticks of 3/4" with it. The suggestion was to either try to roll it up and tape it, or just start with an end in a corner and stuff it down into the bed and let that hold it. I'll have to tape it too, don't need to hit a bump just right and have it uncoil while driving down the road.

I think lighting/extension cords is overkill. Maybe try to light it up better when I'm connecting to the risers but it really shouldn't take that long to get the PEX in place.

I measured and it looks like it will work out to only need one coupler per run since it's about 40' from where it comes in to where it's going. I think I can run 2 sticks, put in an open manifold then 1 more stick after that instead of trying to position the end and adding a bunch of unnecessary couplers.

I'll run the 1/2" off those manifolds over to the risers, then figure out the best way for me to get the water above the floor.

The copper runs directly under the main beam. I'm thinking about running the PEX to the easy access side away from that and the furnace/duct mess (it pretty much sits on the beam). I'll hang it from the joists (running side-to-side at that point), then the 1/2" will cross over the beam after leaving the manifolds. It will add a couple of feet to each run, but it will prevent me from bashing one of the copper lines with a while trying to tack in a PEX hanger.

 

[b-body-bob]

ETA = better than manifolds? For each supply zone, tee off a 3/4" run from the main trunk to under the point of use, then use this to break it up into 1/2" runs connected to the risers?

I'm trying to minimize the number of fittings because PEX fittings go inside the pipe so each one costs a little volume. For example the fitting on the left would replace four tees. Although, all the pipe under the house is 1/2" so I'm gaining by changing to 3/4" anyway.

Also, info if you ever need it:

https://plasticpipe.org/common/Uploaded files/1-PPI/Manuals-Design Guides/PEX Design Guide/Design Guide - Residential PEX Water Supply Plumbing Systems/PEX Design Guide - 2nd Edition/PEX Design Guide - 2nd Edition.pdf

 

[Dr.Jass]

I'd like to say "I'd have called a pro by now" I know my innate cheapness wouldn't have yet gotten there. I redid the whole hot side of my house years back, but there was no crawling involved.

I was told that going to larger pipe wouldn't make a difference if you end up at 1/2" because the small pipe is your flow restriction regardless of what's feeding it. While physics tells me that's true, I went to 3/4" runs anyhow. It's been a long time, but I seem to think that in PVC, it was actually less expensive in the final tally. Cheaper fittings, maybe? Can't say for sure; it was over 15 years ago.

 

[b-body-bob]

I tried calling pros. They won't even come out when you say "crawl space" The one estimate I got was for $6k and when I acted interested, they said they couldn't give me a start date or tell me how long it will take. I guess $6k was their "go away" price.

I was told the 1/2" gives you pressure, the 3/4" gives you volume. I knew a guy who plumbed his new house all the way to the stops in 3/4" and he said there was low pressure so don't do that.

If it was going back in copper I'd run it all in 1/2' because the couplers don't reduce the pipe volume. PEX couplers do. I might be over-thinking it but from the first time I heard of PEX I was told to limit how many couplers I use. OTOH, I've got a BIL who was a pro plumber that gave me no end of grief over how ugly my work is next door where I used rolls of PEX. He uses short sticks, just like he would with copper, so there's a metric crap ton of couplers involved.

FWIW, you ever tried to straighten a roll of 3/4" PEX? I had to rig up a way to unroll the tubing because just laying it down and unrolling it got me nowhere but POed. Then I had to force it against the joist and use too many supports to get it to run where I needed it. But eventually I got it all run and flowing by myself so I've got that going for me.

Anyway, that's a lot of bla-bla-bla to say "I think I need to use 3/4" because PEX introduces a small restriction at each coupling."

Another thing I found that is lurking in the back of my mind is the expansion rate. I didn't allow for that next door, but there are loops and sags in the pipe since I could never get it straightened out. From the design guide linked earlier:

Do not pull tubing tight during installation. This can cause excessive tensile forces on fittings and connections when tubing cools and contracts. Allow 1/8-inch slack per foot of installed tubing. Expansion can usually be accommodated by the tubing’s flexibility for sizes up to and including 1 inch. Expansion loops or offsets may be used if needed depending on installation and sizes used

That's a lot of slack on a 60' run. I have not found the expansion spec in the book yet, I noticed that expansion requirement because it had a graphic.

 

[Dr.Jass]

I tried calling pros. They won't even come out when you say "crawl space" The one estimate I got was for $6k and when I acted interested, they said they couldn't give me a start date or tell me how long it will take. I guess $6k was their "go away" price.

Laughing specifically at this.

"Jim, we need to raise that 'go away' number. It ain't high enough. That dude didn't want to go away."

 

[b-body-bob]

Even better - they didn't even come out and look at it. There were guys here putting in a patch back when I was carrying the home repair insurance, I asked them about it, they don't know anything, then a month or so later an estimate showed up in the mail.

They would have about $200-$300 max in supplies, everything else goes to the worker bees and profit. I just couldn't convince myself to call their bluff on it.

I'm just one of those dummies who finds honor and satisfaction in fixing my own stuff. Alone. Ugh.

 

[74DartSport]

I fix my own crap because I’m too cheap to pay anyone.
Except roofing. I’m sure it’s simple but never tried and never will.

 

[b-body-bob]

I fix my own crap because I’m too cheap to pay anyone.
Except roofing. I’m sure it’s simple but never tried and never will.

I've done roofing before but developed a fear of heights after one fall. I know there are tricks and ways you have to handle flashing, odd lines, etc, but if you've got a normal roofline the hardest part is getting bundles of shingles on the roof to start with. Never be the rookie on a jobsite.

 

[b-body-bob]

Just came out from under the house. Fuck me running. I added a hanger where I scabbed in the last piece. While there I see it's seeping. Figured it was the shark bite so I wiped it off and nope it's another hole starting in the pipe.

Maybe this was pro work in 1955 but you would've thought they knew better than to solder steel directly to copper but apparently not.


At one time we had a home repair policy that was sending guys out to fix these leaks. In one place there is a sharkbite literally less than a foot from where they started one of their repairs. Why they didn't start on the other side of the sharkbite is a mystery for the ages. I didn't count and can't in the photos I took but I bet there are 8-10 sharkbites in that run of pipe. There are more patches than original pipe and the original pipe that's left is all bad.

FWIW we bought that policy because a plumber came out told us they would eventually cut their losses and replace it all. Ha. I don't know who cut their losses but do know the plumbers eventually quit answering calls to this address. The plumber who told us that never sent us a bill for the work either. I called and told the clerk but never got a response. It's an inverse fuck-you price when they don't want to send you a bill because then you'll call them again.

I'm off work starting week after next and I'm hoping that seep doesn't become a leak before then. Party on Garth.

 

[b-body-bob]

After tossing and turning last night thinking about this cluster I came to the idea that the simplest thing to do is to just cut that main copper line out and replace that with 1/2" PEX with sharkbites connecting it where it branches to the two baths.

I don't know exactly why but I've been stuck on replacing it all with 3/4" which brings a lot of unnecessary replumbing into the picture because it changes to 1/2" on the cold side where it crosses into the crawl space. the hot side is all 1/2". You can't (shouldn't) to from 1/2" up to 3/4" so there's no holding back, it all needs replaced at that point. Other than the added volume, I think it's overthinking.

I did look at this photo and confirm that I can't roll it out alone because I would be forever crawling from one end to the other. With a helper we could probably pull it off with the helper at the near end with a heat gun straightening it out and pushing it to me, then me crawling along with it clipping it to the joists.



Yes I I know the duct work needs to be strapped up better, and for sure the wiring shouldn't be in the crawlspace but that is what you get when you buy a 50 year old house and then hire people to do things for you. There's some sort of a junction box about right under about where I'm sitting right now that needs me to open it up and look inside.

It's basically a straight shot out, with one tee about 50 feet out for one bath and terminating at the far end for that bathroom. I could just plug sharkbites on those single runs to the baths, save cutting and replacing a lot of pipe, trust in engineering and be done. If the joins are hung securely there's no reason why the sharkbites would leak other than shit luck, so ...

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

I hated crawl spaces, luckily there were not too many around here so it was only a few over the years.
Some of the attics were pretty tight though.
They do make copper clamps, yea eventually the copper pipe itself would go, but no at every clamp!
Never got into the pex, last few years on construction jobs the plumbers started using that & the flex gas lines so can't help you there.
I put on a new boiler & A/c system before I retired, now I call the plumber, don't want to deal with it any more.
The A/C I will check, I dread the day I have to pay some outrageous price for a simple relay.
My bro in law got charged 1000 bucks for a service call, 2 something just to come, a time delay relay (like 18buck cost) 400 to put it in & 1lb freon, maybe 20 buck cost & ANOTHER 400 to put it in.
I used to do the whole darn call for 100 & double the parts!

 

[b-body-bob]

We've got a nephew who does HVAC repair and will keep our units running. Gas is just outrageous though and there's no escaping that if you need it.

I've got some curled up 1/2" PEX here and a heat gun, going to try an experiment after work to see how big a deal it is to straighten it out enough it to where I can run it from joist to joist.

I saw a novel idea to run hot water through the roll and straighten it out - fit a hose connector on one end, a ball valve on the other, and hook it to the HWT drain to fill the pipe with hot water.

The A/C I will check, I dread the day I have to pay some outrageous price for a simple relay.

I'll tell you what there is nothing you would ever need that you can't just order and bypass the local scalpers. I've become a regular appliance repairman since I discovered wholesalers with how-to videos and every parts book known to man.

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

Even though I did HVAC I never did much on my home appliances, don't like working on stuff I'm not familiar with, as you guys can see with my work on the car. When I did I usually made it more complicated than it should have been, now I don't even want to look before I call the repair man!
Last few times it ended up that the repair was almost the cost of a new unit, so new unit it was!

 

[b-body-bob]

OK, I've decided, it's 6 20' sticks of 1/2" in blue and red, with sharkbites to connect it to the existing copper at one end, and then to the branches toward the bathrooms. So what I have less volume and you get scalded if you're in the shower and someone flushes the toilet. It's that way right now and we live with it, right? It will be done and I can quit boring you guys with this tale of woe.

There's only one person I would ask for help with this helljob and I know it would be less hassle to just do it myself than to mess around waiting on him to show up and then he never does and I get to do it alone anyway. I won't ask anyone else to help with it because it's miserable under there.

I also still think rolling out 60' x2 in a crawl space and getting it straight enough to hang is going to be nothing but a stone cold PITA no matter who I have helping.



The fun starts Friday night.

 

[Dr.Jass]

I'll tell you what there is nothing you would ever need that you can't just order and bypass the local scalpers. I've become a regular appliance repairman since I discovered wholesalers with how-to videos and every parts book known to man.

My house furnace was installed in September of 1995. It's 95 or 96% efficient. I've replaced an ignitor, a differential pressure switch, an inducer blower, and a circuit board in the 21 years I've been there. I've spent under $500 keeping it running, doing almost all the work myself.
When the inducer grenaded, a friend retired from HVAC thought he had one lying around. He came over with it, but it wasn't right. He suggested I replace the furnace with "something more efficient" than what's there. I asked him how long it would take a 2-3% increase in efficiency to pay for itself in a <650'sq. house, or if maybe that money was better spent upgrading the century-old windows. "Definitely do the windows," he agreed, so I promptly didn't.

The thing with the furnace--a story I hear from others, time and again--is that "those parts aren't available anymore" is the battle cry of the furnace dealer. I've heard that on three occasions when not only were they readily available, in a couple of cases they were local--same day available. I figured I was definitely screwed on the 18-year-old circuit board, but learned that part is virtually universal and was used by several manufacturers in some revision or another for well over a decade. The various versions interchange; it's just a moved terminal or two.

Both my brother and sister fell for the "parts aren't available" ruse and paid Hugh Jass money to replace their furnaces. In Dave's defense, that furnace was old and inefficient (late 1960s) so it needed it. Amy's, on the other hand, was both newer than mine and a much-more-popular brand and model. I've no doubt whatever it needed was readily available.

On the other hand, I haven't had a working clothes dryer since September 29th. The new belt was a whopping $6, but my back hasn't been well enough to work on the damned thing (which is mostly disassembled at this point).

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

Well then I hope to see you have survived with a sat. am post! Good luck!