tiny...aka 1958 lloyd

[restoman]

For some reason, I thought you were already using dry flake... ?
I was beginning to wonder if you weren't looking for unicorns when you said you couldn't get the look you wanted. It makes sense now...

Limco black: yup. Blacker than black. It used to be labelled Executive Black 9000.

Years ago, I did a Porsche 928. The owner wanted the blackest black that could be found. German owner... he just about sh*t a brick when I told him Glasurit package black was a brownish tinged colour, and that I wanted to use the lesser-quality Limco on his prized possession. He was ecstatic when he picked up the final product, though.

 

[Dr.Jass]

I guess I'm not 100% sure of what you're trying to achieve with the paint. A friend had a locally-well-known '72 Challenger that was deep candy red over gold. That paint "popped" like crazy with the only flake/mica/metallic being in the base gold paint with several coats of red over it. There was no "flake" per se, it was just a standard metallic gold but it was not at all muted in sunlight... which brings up a point: You cannot judge how paint tricks are going to look inside your shop. Sunlight isn't just a particular temperature, it's also a unique distribution source that simply cannot be duplicated with shop lighting (especially tubes). Each time you do a test panel, you need to take it outside and see it in natural sunlight to get the full effect of what you've done. What may not appeal to you under LED/fluorescent tubes might be perfect once it rolls into the sun. That's especially true of candy muting your metallic/flake element--Jimmy's Challenger didn't look at all special inside a well-lit shop, but get it out in the sun (or passing under old-school white streetlights) and it was absolutely gorgeous. Auto shows like NAIAS are never held under tube lighting--it's always point-source to get those bright spots around reflections of the lights and make the paint come alive.

If you keep adding flake trying to get candy-over-metalflake to wow you under artificial tube lighting, once it's in sunlight you may just want to add twin outboards to complete the look. Take it out in bright sunlight before you decide on your process.

 

[69.5CUDA]

nah doc i actualy shot a 12x24 sheet of steel, shot one half in 1 silver the other half in another, then 4 quadrented it and used various mixes of dry flake mixed in clear, then candied the whole thing and waited for a nice day to wander around with it...i know all tooo well about sunlight vs shop light..id be curious to know exactly what gold was used..maybe theres a silver alternative(i dont want the yellow tone)..and the hood isnt mounted...and was also carried outside as i thought id found a compromise...turned out i was wrong

resto i assume you mean jars of dry flake mixed in clear right?>...tho ive come across a dry proccess where you spray dry flake over wet paint?

ive got ed roth surfite, HOK,voodoo flake, and a handfull of other dry flakes, i came across an oddball company that i used on the engine parts/block that was a pearl and it helped add to the polished aluminum feel

some years back i shot a vintage steel gascan in the silver i was going to use coated in candy..and while i love it..it doesnt "pop" as much as i really want

also it bears mentioning that the metal flake in paint has changed DRASTICLY over the years...so a gold from say..20+ years ago vs a modern gold are 2 entierly different animals...and the old gold will out glitter the new one...i really want the kind of sparkle youd get say 40+ years ago on show cars burried under the candy


honestly im starting to think ive got a few issues with flake itself, i dont want the bassboat so im not using enough flake in my test batches, but also im hoping the next order combined with multiple coats will get me in the ballpark of what i ultimately want

 

[restoman]

Metallics have changed greatly over the last 60-70 years. In fact, most mixing banks use much less than they ever did, with the effect now being taken care of with pearls. There's a reason most painters and jobbers look at you with wonder in their eyes when you talk about flakes & metallics: most have no experience with them.
I think you're going to be roped into some kind of three or four stage formula to get what you're looking for.
I've done a few. Give me a day or two to dig up my mixing log, and I'll try to come up with some formulas and codes.

 

[69.5CUDA]

hell in the past 30 years or playing with the paints myself ive watched them change DRASTICALLY to the point that they are night and day, and show cars from the EARLY 80s ie 80-83 when i was little going to "world of wheels" i remember what those candy metalic paint jobs looked like...and ive never seen anything in person come close since the lat 90s

i fully expect it to end up being a multi, multi step setup, i know to get the color i want from the candy i need 3 passes, i know i want a silver base to keep the candy the color and "tone" i want, its all about getting the right flack size, shape, consistency inbetween, and i do belive some amount of pearl will probably have to go in the issue is it has to be a "pure" pearl ie no color shift so either white or silver

i know for FACT that the pearl i want for the roof doesnt even exist anymore, and im hunting unicorns for that..ill probably just be stuck mixing n playing till i find something i can live with..and ive allready been lost down the rabbit hole on it a few times, if nothing else its helping me find fun new ideas and other sources for flakes and pearl mix's, ..from where im sitting right now on pearls im fealing its going to be atleast 8 coats deep as im going to have to do a glacial white base, then do a bunch of differant layers of various pearls with the final coat befor the clears will be a special white pearl ive found that should help "blend" the previous coats

 

[69.5CUDA]

resto since your probably bout the only guy who can answer this....

ive been wondering on needle and cup sizes as well as air pressures, since i know fist hand that an old fashiond suction/bottom feed gun sprays totaly different than an hvlp/top load....yes i remember doing the marbles in the gun to keep the flake floating...and id swear the flake in that setup laid out more "random"? and less "flat", im wondering if theres some tricks with needle, cup and pressure to repliacate

i suspect for ideal flake flow the biggest of both is required

 

[restoman]

Tip, needle, and cap size is wholly dependent on what you're spraying. Most tech sheets will give you a starting point recommendation, but gun, booth flow, air volume and pressure, and - most importantly - paint gun technique, will determine what works best for you. Trial and error is how she goes.
Flake suspension isn't really an issue (never really was), if the guy holding the gun knows what he's doing. The marble thing always makes me giggle: what better way to interfere with a suction tube than to put a rolling ball anywhere near it? Picture trying to slurp up a milkshake with chunks of strawberry in it through a straw, and you can get what I mean...
The best advice I could ever give someone doing flake is to mix it, load it, and spray it, with no down-time in between those steps.

 

[69.5CUDA]

well i mean certainly when you get to the bigger flakes youve gotta go up in cap n needle right or your just going to clog up..or...atleast in my experiments i did, i did play with pressure and flow a bit and was able to see some minor results but its all experimentation..i know where i like each gun for presure as a baseline, but then obviously it has to get tweaked based on fluid viscosity, with adding flake i feel like im totaly missing the sweet spot..with the pearls i was able to dial in on it real fast with no issue, which is why i asked about cap n needle, well that and the clog i managed..but that could have simply been me getting annoyed and adding way to much flake for a single coat..

as for the old marble trick...it actualy worked great in my old gun, but the pickup tube was VERY close to the bottom in the center so the marble never got close being it stayed in the outter dropped ring area of the cup, i remember laying b5 as well as some silvers and can honestly remember seeing a HUGE differance atleast when doing long panels ...again that was with the old school gun not the modern hvlp

off the top of my head i dont remember the brand, but what ive been using is a "high solids" glamour clear...maybe i should be useing less solids?

as for the mix n shoot approach..thats EXACTLY how ive been doing it since prep hasnt been a concern "yet" and its all about testing till i get it right.....right now its about hows it look and less about getting the finish perfect, so orange peal, or any crap on the surface doesnt matter right now, hell i could get oily fisheyes in it and not care, im litteraly grabbing random chunks of sheetmetal for testing wipe it hit it with a silver base then lay stuff on it..i know it wont stay stuck for the long term(which means i can remove easy too) which is why im not even laying out primer

 

[69.5CUDA]

Metallics have changed greatly over the last 60-70 years. In fact, most mixing banks use much less than they ever did, with the effect now being taken care of with pearls. There's a reason most painters and jobbers look at you with wonder in their eyes when you talk about flakes & metallics: most have no experience with them.
I think you're going to be roped into some kind of three or four stage formula to get what you're looking for.
I've done a few. Give me a day or two to dig up my mixing log, and I'll try to come up with some formulas and codes.

im hoping your mixing logs help, if nothing else its a good "baseline"

had some "new" flake come in yesterday, as time permits ill be doing some more experiments...but initial light tests have me giggling with ideas

 

[restoman]

Sorry to take so long... been battling a sinus infection that's had me on my ass.

Here's what I came up with as far as three stage formulas that pop:

My favourite: I've used this on several different cars and trucks, with variations on base colour, tint formula and coats applied. It's an easy, easy colour to spray. I've been able to duplicate it many times - cab one day, box another, loose panels another day - as long as proper logs were kept.
Ford - Laser Red Tint code E9/M6688A
I've done it primarily as the #1 formula, but there are variant formulas available.

GM - code 86 WA127B
I used this one on a '79 TA, and in the sunlight, it showed a heavy metal through the tinted red clear. This particular job won several paint awards at some bigger shows. Most judges thought it was a HOK or custom mix.

One of my custom mixes:
Base of GM code 13 WA7843 silver. Just a standard silver used on pretty near everything.
Tinted clear with 2g of blue pearl to 24g of clear.
Must be topped with straight clear.
I mixed it in ICI Autocolor, using PP07 Blue Pearl of my mixing bank at the time, but any pearl can be used,depending on the desired effect.
Used on a '77Z-28, it looked pretty decent in the sunlight. Subtle, yet there.

I also found a Chrysler Candy Apple Red that I used on a '66 Chevelle, but I can't recall if it's simple base/clear or tri-stage, and I didn't log in more than the formula, so I think it's just base/clear.
Might be worth a look, though...
code RHC

As with any custom formulations, a good logbook is vital, with formulas, applied coats, air pressures, gun used, humidity levels, temperature, etc. should be kept for any future needs.

 

[69.5CUDA]

thankyou for that resto, the biggest help in that..in fact was the "Tinted clear with 2g of blue pearl to 24g of clear."
and no worrys about getting back to me slow..time has NOT been on my side

im dead stone set on the base being selver, and the "top color" being uk16 magenta candy..as far as im concerned that was set in stone when i picked up the candy and did my first test shoot of this gas can, later i realised the whole car in this color would be too much..even as a tiny car and descided i wanted a mother of pearl white roof....which will offset the car perfectly

the HUGE hiccup has been intermediate flake layer as the silver on its own doesnt "pop" under the candy unless its the dead of summer on a "perfectly clear day in the perfect conditions that..well...we almost never get in the pacific north wet, so it needs some HEAVY augmentation

as of right now im figuring silver then multiple passes of flaked clear then candy then clear, but im not sure how much flake you can safely ad to x amount of clear....ive got a dozen different flakes now to play with

right now im focused on finding that flake layer..but havnt had shit all of time ...certainly not enough time to warm the shop up to work...and the primary reason to find the flake NOW is so i ca put the damned engine back together and get it out of my way

 

[69.5CUDA]

soooooo in the random few hours here and there i have "kinda" been working on the lloyd but also not really

i smoothed out the hood a few weeks back and froze my fingers doing it, the plan is to use the hood as a guinepig for flake, its got the curves and lines and its light enough and small enough to transport..however i did NOT pull the dents or fill the holes as this hood still has welding in its future..so i fully intend to use it as a test bed then re-strip it...its a test mule for paint right now nothing more...a couple days ago it was "just" nice enough and we had a day off so i layed out some primer

 

[69.5CUDA]

over the last few months ive been working on a PAIR of 3d printed 58 lloyds, badly printed i might add so in need of a shit ton of love, but with the cold temps, lack of time and the need to be able to work on something and drop it at a moments notice ive not been able to work on the 1:1

i had the pair printed in 7.908 scale, why a weird size?, well to be specific i inted to make them both hobby grade rc cars, and this ment starting with the scale wheels availible which are 1.9(i forget the exact mm) but i took measurements of beadlip to lip on a dozen real aluminum wheels, then did the same on 5 pairs of 1.9s, pluged the info into a scale calculator and it spit out the 7.9 scale....this led me to find out a bunch of very big bonus scale issues, standard 5mm led's are so close to the same size of the t-bird tail lights that it would be the differance of the real units being less than 5mm smaller, headlight lenses from several "truck" kits just so happen to be the right size even tho they are "10th scale" and the list kinda just goes on and on...and its possible i may have found a set of salt flat discs too!

the first one being a test mule as theres alot of gluing and such so ive gotta figure out what survives and what doesnt, this one will probably top out at 25ish and remain stock looking, while its sister will get all the mods done to the "eurosled" lloyd to be a 8th scale replica capable of 45-65mph depending on which of chassis i have i put it on

trying to stay with a "stock" body created its own list of issues, NO ONE makes a chassis narrow enough to work and the short wheelbase is another huge issue, you cant just shorten axle shafts on rc'cars they dont hold up to cut n re-welding..trust me ive tryed over the decades and theres just too much torque involved so you have to find often times weird ways around the problems

anyway enough yammering, youll see some weird shots of mud tires, this was a EXACT scale representation of real vs 8th scale oddly enough...also the pisspoor 3d print has taken an assload of work to "save" it

 

[69.5CUDA]

 

[restoman]

How much flake can you safely add to clear?
As long as you can get it out of the spray gun, you're good.

I used to do some Cascar cars, and one of them was done in Blue and white with PPG Prismatic multi-colour flake on top. Sharpest car at any race.
Fiddling around one day, I flamed a toilet seat. It looked good, but no "pop", so I loaded a 1/4 pint of clear with Prismatic and shot it. It was all the detail gun could do to get it spit out, but there was enough flake to pretty much obscure the HoK Planet Green underneath. I had to bury the flake texture in three coats of MS clear.

I got a few flake jobs out of that toilet seat before someone decided they liked it enough to take it with them.

 

[69.5CUDA]

im starting to get the feeling that flake is intended to go ABOVE the candy, but...i want the candy over the flake, so that all of the flake has a uniform "color" to it and isnt just silver flake on top of a color, i want that candy tint!

lastnight between nightmares i had an idea, why not get some ultra thin lexan sheet, then i can shoot single passes of various flake and candy and just "stack them up" and see if it tests out the way i want it to...not sure if thats just pruly wasting my time or a good idea

 

[Dr.Jass]

Instead of flat Lexan, have you considered something with some shape to it? Got an old chair spindle or table leg that was lathe-turned? It would give you some different contours as well as "problem spots" (the low points or grooves) that would give you an idea of what you'll deal with on negative body lines in the sheetmetal. As I'm sure you're aware, anywhere the candy can "gather" or settle it's going to be a darker color.

Love the 3D-printed Lloyd project. I'll bet that took awhile to print. The lines in 3D printed stuff are always the drawback, but I assume the material's thick enough to sand smooth. A customer had some bullet-style center caps 3D printed for the wheels on his '71 Mustang. The result was pretty nice but again, the lines need sanding out. How does that printing media hold up to paint? Have you tried that yet?

 

[69.5CUDA]

ive never had anything 3d printed..so time will tell, honestly tho ive got some friends kicking my ass for paying for such a shitshow job, the right printer with the right settings can print some pretty stunning shit that barely needs sanded

the bodys ive got are 3-4mm thick, a friend of mine when he has time is going to print me up a 54 chev hood and a 72 jag hood..ie the same stuff i used on the real lloyd

i litteraly sprayed it in primer till it was running off.....high build at that....so it shouldnt need much filler

as for the candy.im fully aware of the hills n valleys to candy, and honestly ..not really concerned as the only real section i have to contend with is actualy the hood, since i have trim that splits the fender to body from the hood to the rear rolledpan, and the roof comes off sooooo i shouldnt have a single actual valley

the whole idea behind the lexan is so i can cut it up into multiple pieces and layer them in and out till i get the desiered effect which would tell me X coats of x to get result desired, im not against using the hood as a full test bed i just figured some 1mm or less lexan would give me the ability to use less paint and get more tests without all the work

 

[restoman]

The Lexan might get you close, but it might fool you as well.
The depth of multiple clear coats is achieved by the bonding process between each coat. That's hard to duplicate with removable film.

 

[69.5CUDA]

thats true and the inevitable static charge will likely cause the flake to lay totaly differently giving false hope