Not A Duster's Most Excellent Progress
- Thread starter Not A Duster
- Start date
Diplomat_Wagon
Hiding In The Bushes While
Jester said:Don't sweat it, he helped you in a way you won't easily forget
When was this?:wtf:
Diplomat_Wagon
Hiding In The Bushes While
Well I guess thats true. :doh:
Would be nice for him to point me to the parts I should be using instead of chewin me out over what I have at the moment.
Would be nice for him to point me to the parts I should be using instead of chewin me out over what I have at the moment.
Diplomat_Wagon
Hiding In The Bushes While
Why would you be buying Pull-ups? :wtf:
Don't need any tissues thank you.
Just need a flame retardant suit. :doubt:
Don't need any tissues thank you.
Just need a flame retardant suit. :doubt:
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
I didn't bash you, man... obviously, no one else ever told you about the intake or the heads. I did. Now you know. It's called "tough love". 
While all these shops and even magazines (who get paid advertising money by these same shops) are pushing the 302, my main argument has always been this: if the 302 head was worth a damn, why didn't Chrysler use them on 318HPs? The last RWD cop M-body to roll off the assembly line still had 360 heads and intake while the 302 had been in production for five years. Obviously, the Highland Park crew knew which was the better head, and that 360 head--I think it was the 945, if I didn't kill that brain cell last Friday--was similar to the '73-up 587s. That design predated the swirl-chamber 302 by over a decade and was still a better performance head, so they used it on cop cars along with the truck 360 4-barrel intake.
The simple fact is that the 302 head was designed to improve fuel efficiency and absolute-bottom-end (as in off-idle) torque for the old ladies in their Fifth Avenues. They kept the squeeze down in the mid-8s, so even a compression increase was not part of the design goal. It was just a side effect of the swirl-chamber design; a side effect they effectively removed with a new piston.
As a side note, the 302 is not a swirl-port head. There is no such thing as a swirl-port LA head. It is a swirl-chamber head, and upsizing the valves kills the swirl effect. It was designed around, and only works with, the 1.78"/1.50" valve combo with which it originally came.
Left in Drive with foot to the floor, my Fifth Avenue would upshift at around 4,200RPM. My Gran Fury squad car would hang on until almost 5,500. 'Nuff said about design intent.
J-heads aren't really that hard to find, because all '71-'72 360s have 'em, just with the smaller 1.88" intake valves. Same exhaust valves, same ports--just open 'em up for the 2.02" valves, toss in hardened seats and you're good to go. I found four sets of them in one summer without even trying... one set was still bolted to a '73 340, which I bought in its entirety (hey--we're back to Nodda being the subject! That balancer is on his motor!). That's my oddball 9-28-71 casting-date block. It was J-head motor with a '73 intake that was stamped with a '73 VIN. :huh: Another set came off a '72 Fury [smilie=f: with a 2-barrel 360 but amazingly already had the 2.02" valves in it!
Even easier to find right now are the excellent '89-'92 308 castings, which flow even better out of the box. Just look for any '89-'91 318 or '89-'92 360 in a pickemup truck. No worries about exhaust-valve seats on the 308s, either... toss in a set of 2.02s and get ready to tear it up.
The compression thing isn't the huge deal you think it is--like I said, it's all about air in and air out. If there's nothing there to compress, there's no point in having 10:1 compression, right? Mill a few thou off the better heads--don't go crazy; .020"-.030" is enough--run the thin gaskets, and get your hands on a better intake. Like I said, even a mid-'80s cast truck piece is better. You'll be close to 9:1, depending on the heads you use and how much you mill 'em; you can run more timing to help offset the low-end compromise. You'll lose some bottom-end punch anyhow, but the thing will rip your head off above 3 grand... and with that tasty 3.09 first gear in your OD trans, you'll never miss the lost bottom end. :dance: Just don't be afraid to spin the thing; it'll probably pull hard well into the 6-grand range. Sounds like you've beaten on it pretty well so you'd know better than I, but a well-assembled stock 360 bottom end with a good oil pump will hold up eternally shifted at 6500.
You'll probably have a lot better luck with your ThermoQuad, too. I imagine part of your tuning problem lies in the carb's reaction to the strange vacuum signals generated by the combo of high-velocity, small-volume ports combined with your somewhat-gnarly camshaft.
And if ya think I'm insane about the compression thing, ask B-Body-Bob how those Eddy heads are working out on that low-compression 440 of his. :dance:
While all these shops and even magazines (who get paid advertising money by these same shops) are pushing the 302, my main argument has always been this: if the 302 head was worth a damn, why didn't Chrysler use them on 318HPs? The last RWD cop M-body to roll off the assembly line still had 360 heads and intake while the 302 had been in production for five years. Obviously, the Highland Park crew knew which was the better head, and that 360 head--I think it was the 945, if I didn't kill that brain cell last Friday--was similar to the '73-up 587s. That design predated the swirl-chamber 302 by over a decade and was still a better performance head, so they used it on cop cars along with the truck 360 4-barrel intake.
The simple fact is that the 302 head was designed to improve fuel efficiency and absolute-bottom-end (as in off-idle) torque for the old ladies in their Fifth Avenues. They kept the squeeze down in the mid-8s, so even a compression increase was not part of the design goal. It was just a side effect of the swirl-chamber design; a side effect they effectively removed with a new piston.
As a side note, the 302 is not a swirl-port head. There is no such thing as a swirl-port LA head. It is a swirl-chamber head, and upsizing the valves kills the swirl effect. It was designed around, and only works with, the 1.78"/1.50" valve combo with which it originally came.
Left in Drive with foot to the floor, my Fifth Avenue would upshift at around 4,200RPM. My Gran Fury squad car would hang on until almost 5,500. 'Nuff said about design intent.
J-heads aren't really that hard to find, because all '71-'72 360s have 'em, just with the smaller 1.88" intake valves. Same exhaust valves, same ports--just open 'em up for the 2.02" valves, toss in hardened seats and you're good to go. I found four sets of them in one summer without even trying... one set was still bolted to a '73 340, which I bought in its entirety (hey--we're back to Nodda being the subject! That balancer is on his motor!). That's my oddball 9-28-71 casting-date block. It was J-head motor with a '73 intake that was stamped with a '73 VIN. :huh: Another set came off a '72 Fury [smilie=f: with a 2-barrel 360 but amazingly already had the 2.02" valves in it!
Even easier to find right now are the excellent '89-'92 308 castings, which flow even better out of the box. Just look for any '89-'91 318 or '89-'92 360 in a pickemup truck. No worries about exhaust-valve seats on the 308s, either... toss in a set of 2.02s and get ready to tear it up.
The compression thing isn't the huge deal you think it is--like I said, it's all about air in and air out. If there's nothing there to compress, there's no point in having 10:1 compression, right? Mill a few thou off the better heads--don't go crazy; .020"-.030" is enough--run the thin gaskets, and get your hands on a better intake. Like I said, even a mid-'80s cast truck piece is better. You'll be close to 9:1, depending on the heads you use and how much you mill 'em; you can run more timing to help offset the low-end compromise. You'll lose some bottom-end punch anyhow, but the thing will rip your head off above 3 grand... and with that tasty 3.09 first gear in your OD trans, you'll never miss the lost bottom end. :dance: Just don't be afraid to spin the thing; it'll probably pull hard well into the 6-grand range. Sounds like you've beaten on it pretty well so you'd know better than I, but a well-assembled stock 360 bottom end with a good oil pump will hold up eternally shifted at 6500.
You'll probably have a lot better luck with your ThermoQuad, too. I imagine part of your tuning problem lies in the carb's reaction to the strange vacuum signals generated by the combo of high-velocity, small-volume ports combined with your somewhat-gnarly camshaft.
And if ya think I'm insane about the compression thing, ask B-Body-Bob how those Eddy heads are working out on that low-compression 440 of his. :dance:
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Not A Duster
Well-known member
Diplomat_Wagon said:
Nobody is bashing you DW, and we already have a village idiot. (Although Albert has not been here for a while, so we may have to begin interviewing for his position.)
Most of us I think are pretty impressed with what you have accomplished on that wagon given what you have to work with. I would think Jass in particular, because he has some kind of sick, twisted fascination with them ugly ole F/M/J cars. I mean look at the turd in his signature...[smilie=i:
What he said to you wasn't from ignorance - he was simply responding a statement you made regarding the outcome of a race between two cars. He took his knowledge of the setup on both cars and called on what you said - pure and simple. He also backed up what he was saying with some hard facts, based on his knowledge & experience. I'm certain that it was not personal - and that you should not have taken it that way.
I dunno - I've been hanging with car/bike guys for most of my adult life & it's been my experience that there is something [I]wrong[/I] if we aren't talkin' smack about each other's rides...it's not personal - it's just part of the fun. And in the case of someone like the Doc, you might learn something as an added bonus.
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..and he saved you from losing a bet. 
Diplomat_Wagon
Hiding In The Bushes While
Well thanks for the info Jass.
Sorry if I was acting like a dink, I had just got home at 1AM from about 13 hours of cultivating.
My heads aren't stock, they have 360 valves in them with some decent port work. (I know it probably doesn't matter but I'm just throwing that out there.)
I guess what it boils down to is that I'm happy with the performance and I REALLY don't wanna tear that motor down EVER again unless something blows up.
I really don't like revving that motor above 5500 RPM because of the new but factory grade rods and rod bolts. :shifty:
How about you help me build a torque monster outta the 1980 318 I'm puttin in my pick em up truck!
Sorry if I was acting like a dink, I had just got home at 1AM from about 13 hours of cultivating.
My heads aren't stock, they have 360 valves in them with some decent port work. (I know it probably doesn't matter but I'm just throwing that out there.)
I guess what it boils down to is that I'm happy with the performance and I REALLY don't wanna tear that motor down EVER again unless something blows up.
I really don't like revving that motor above 5500 RPM because of the new but factory grade rods and rod bolts. :shifty:
How about you help me build a torque monster outta the 1980 318 I'm puttin in my pick em up truck!
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
Man, I don't get it. I'm all about upgrades, particularly when my original budget meant compromise. Hence the tunnel ram on a 318. :dance:Diplomat_Wagon said:
As far as the shift points: the original rods and bolts (and I do mean original--as in, factory) in my '73 Charger 340 went over 7,000 lots of times with no ill effects. I bought that car with over 120,000 miles on it, and when Psycho Jen blasted it by shifting it at ~8,400RPM (with almost 140,000 on it), it was a valve that failed, not anything down low... and even the valve can't be blamed (this is another Jesse story--yes, that Jesse--but it's really not that funny).
Regardless, I really don't think that with your current combo there's much more to be found by going any higher with your shifting... you've gotta be running out of intake and head in the mid-5s anyhow, though I expect your cam would like to see another 500-1000RPM before the shift comes. Looking at your combo, I'm thinking you'd pick up a bunch of grunt and a shytload of midrange with a smaller cam.
It's kinda tough to make a torque-monster 318 without increasing the stroke... but a good place to start would be with the heads and intake off your 360.
gomopar440
Livin' my life...one gas station at a time.
Fishboy said:Lemme guess, put a 440 in it?
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!
*hands Fishboy a qupie doll*
Diplomat_Wagon
Hiding In The Bushes While
Dr.Jass said:Man, I don't get it. I'm all about upgrades, particularly when my original budget meant compromise. Hence the tunnel ram on a 318. :dance:
As far as the shift points: the original rods and bolts (and I do mean original--as in, factory) in my '73 Charger 340 went over 7,000 lots of times with no ill effects. I bought that car with over 120,000 miles on it, and when Psycho Jen blasted it by shifting it at ~8,400RPM (with almost 140,000 on it), it was a valve that failed, not anything down low... and even the valve can't be blamed (this is another Jesse story--yes, that Jesse--but it's really not that funny).
Regardless, I really don't think that with your current combo there's much more to be found by going any higher with your shifting... you've gotta be running out of intake and head in the mid-5s anyhow, though I expect your cam would like to see another 500-1000RPM before the shift comes. Looking at your combo, I'm thinking you'd pick up a bunch of grunt and a shytload of midrange with a smaller cam.
It's kinda tough to make a torque-monster 318 without increasing the stroke... but a good place to start would be with the heads and intake off your 360.
I 'spose, but then I have nothing to put on the wagon.
I'm gonna leave the ole girl the way she is, but like I said, you can help me build a motor for my truck and the 500" stroker for the Newport when that day comes.
Hey, how about we forget about the wagon untill I can afford Eddy heads for it and then we'll talk. :dance:
:giggedy:Not A Duster
Well-known member
Hey - here's a "back on topic" post.
So - when you go to your local Auto Value parts store, looking to buy shocks for the front of your Mopar, odds are they are gonna sell you a pair of Monroe #32022.
Trouble with these things, is that they don't fit right. At least they don't fit right with the factory bushings. They actually expect you to remove the factory bushings and install these two cheezy little rubber things that they include in the box with the shocks.
I wanted to keep my stock bushings in place because they were:
A) In good shape
and:
B) Looked a lot better than the crap that came in the box.
Trouble is, the shocks are only threaded part way down, unlike the stockers (or the old gabriels I pulled off the car) They actually jam a bit in the metal sleeve of the bushing where the threads stop and when forced throught, the top shock-mounting nut stops about an inch above the top of the bushing...leaving the shock free to flop around.
Unfortunately, I had purchased these shocks back in July last year & threw the boxes away, so there was no returning them and buying a different brand.
We had a thread here recently about what was your favourite tool.
I think over the course of this rebuild, my favourite has become my tap & die set...I've lost count of how many times it has been useful.
So - when you go to your local Auto Value parts store, looking to buy shocks for the front of your Mopar, odds are they are gonna sell you a pair of Monroe #32022.
Trouble with these things, is that they don't fit right. At least they don't fit right with the factory bushings. They actually expect you to remove the factory bushings and install these two cheezy little rubber things that they include in the box with the shocks.
I wanted to keep my stock bushings in place because they were:
A) In good shape
and:
B) Looked a lot better than the crap that came in the box.
Trouble is, the shocks are only threaded part way down, unlike the stockers (or the old gabriels I pulled off the car) They actually jam a bit in the metal sleeve of the bushing where the threads stop and when forced throught, the top shock-mounting nut stops about an inch above the top of the bushing...leaving the shock free to flop around.
Unfortunately, I had purchased these shocks back in July last year & threw the boxes away, so there was no returning them and buying a different brand.
We had a thread here recently about what was your favourite tool.
I think over the course of this rebuild, my favourite has become my tap & die set...I've lost count of how many times it has been useful.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
We don't have Monroe at my store... only KYB and Parts Master (Gabriel rebox). The KYBs are the way to go, or so every shop I talk to tells me.
Both Gabe and Monrow seem to have gone downhill in the past decade.
Don't forget to shoot that shock in a lovely semi-gloss black, resto-boy.
Both Gabe and Monrow seem to have gone downhill in the past decade.
Don't forget to shoot that shock in a lovely semi-gloss black, resto-boy.