b-body-bob
Well-known member
I still think they are all wet. I meant to go back to the 452s and see if they're the same but forgot.
My 71 Duster work in progress
- Thread starter b-body-bob
- Start date
b-body-bob
Well-known member
FWIW the 452s are the same. They're all wet, just different depths.
I'm giving up on this stud idea. I put in 5 new studs, torqued them to 20 lb/ft then had to trim a couple of them to get the header in. One stud was there all along and I had a feeling it was fixing some problem so I left it alone. When I put the nut on that stud it didn't want to go on so I used the thread chaser on it, and when I backed it off the stud came out. It had some hardened stuff, maybe lock-tite, in the threads into the head.
No problem, I grab a new stud and stick it in there but it never stopped going in. It's about 1/2" further into the head that it should be right now. I don't know what's up with that and can't see it to tell, but suspect someone took a drill to the head at some point and screwed it up somehow. I just threw my hands up and quit for the day.
I've got to run out shortly so I'm just going to pick up a set of 1" header bolts while I'm out. The other (driver's) side is going to be even more of a PITA WRT trimming the studs so I'm just going to switch to bolts and move on with it.
I'm giving up on this stud idea. I put in 5 new studs, torqued them to 20 lb/ft then had to trim a couple of them to get the header in. One stud was there all along and I had a feeling it was fixing some problem so I left it alone. When I put the nut on that stud it didn't want to go on so I used the thread chaser on it, and when I backed it off the stud came out. It had some hardened stuff, maybe lock-tite, in the threads into the head.
No problem, I grab a new stud and stick it in there but it never stopped going in. It's about 1/2" further into the head that it should be right now. I don't know what's up with that and can't see it to tell, but suspect someone took a drill to the head at some point and screwed it up somehow. I just threw my hands up and quit for the day.
I've got to run out shortly so I'm just going to pick up a set of 1" header bolts while I'm out. The other (driver's) side is going to be even more of a PITA WRT trimming the studs so I'm just going to switch to bolts and move on with it.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
I pulled the stud out of the bad hole and it looked like the shoulder was a smaller diameter than the others so I stuck another one in and it did the same thing. I ended up just leaving that stud in so the header is on that side.
On the other side I spent way too much time trying to figure out which studs were too long and trimming them to finally decide it just was not going to work without lifting the engine up. I had it in with all but the front two studs in but kept messing because I'm dumb that way. At some point I just quit and decided to look again tomorrow (today). I'll probably just stick a couple of header bolts in those two holes.
I got most of the A12 unwired yesterday on its way to being a bare shell. It was a long day.
On the other side I spent way too much time trying to figure out which studs were too long and trimming them to finally decide it just was not going to work without lifting the engine up. I had it in with all but the front two studs in but kept messing because I'm dumb that way. At some point I just quit and decided to look again tomorrow (today). I'll probably just stick a couple of header bolts in those two holes.
I got most of the A12 unwired yesterday on its way to being a bare shell. It was a long day.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
Looking at "restoration" exhaust stud kits on eBay, they appear to have about 9/16" thread engagement into the heads. As far as the water-jacket nonsense goes, if memory serves all the manifold bolt/stud holes are wet on B/RB engines, but on the LA only two per side are: the one on each end. In most cases I use a stud on each end just for the sake of making the headers easy to hang, then use bolts on the rest. I didn't do that on the '69 Valiant, probably because the headers can't go anywhere anyhow. The TTi headers are a wee bit tight in that application.
Use red or copper RTV to seal the exhaust stud/bolt threads, not pipe compound (a.k.a. thread sealant or "dope") or tape. Pipe sealant is formulated for pipes, a.k.a. tapered threads only. It's worthless on straight threads. Most will tell you that right on the packaging. Another consideration is it's not rated for exhaust-type temperatures. Permatex's High Temperature forumlation is only good to 400°F.
One of the guys that used to work in our performance department told me he'd stopped using header gaskets on his drag car (a 7-second rail, a BB Chev turning 7K), and subsequently on his street cars, after he got tired of them constantly blowing or burning. He just uses a bead of red silicone on the header, maybe 1/16" thick, around each port (the nice, round bead you get from the end of the clipped-off nozzle). He lets it fully cure prior to installing the headers and has never had a failure. I did something similar on my 440 Six Pack w/long-tube headers long before I knew him, but I put similar beads on both sides of a header gasket with the same curing procedure. I never had a failure on that engine again, having had at least three burn previously. Installation was a bit of a pain, though. Again, though, I didn't do that on the W2 TTi headers (thought about it during installation but I just wanted them in, damn it). I just used the gaskets provided and did not have an issue, possibly owing to greater flange thickness than the Hedmans on the 440+6. Also possible: The W2 heads were brand new, where the heads on the 440 were well-used originals, possibly pitted on the exhaust-gasket surfaces.
I stopped using lock washers after the first gasket failure in the 440. The temperature had annealed the "spring" right out of them. They were simply split flat washers upon removal, meaning they were doing nothing. After that I used Stage 8 locking bolts, but I got tired of dealing with 'em when a gasket failed. When I switched to the RTV-reinforced gaskets I went back to standard shouldered-hex Mr. Gasket bolts. They never loosened in approximately 10,000 miles of driving. The Stage 8 stuff is very nice, but costly and a bit of a hassle to remove/reinstall repeatedly.
Just a few things to consider based on what has and has not worked well for me over the years.
Use red or copper RTV to seal the exhaust stud/bolt threads, not pipe compound (a.k.a. thread sealant or "dope") or tape. Pipe sealant is formulated for pipes, a.k.a. tapered threads only. It's worthless on straight threads. Most will tell you that right on the packaging. Another consideration is it's not rated for exhaust-type temperatures. Permatex's High Temperature forumlation is only good to 400°F.
One of the guys that used to work in our performance department told me he'd stopped using header gaskets on his drag car (a 7-second rail, a BB Chev turning 7K), and subsequently on his street cars, after he got tired of them constantly blowing or burning. He just uses a bead of red silicone on the header, maybe 1/16" thick, around each port (the nice, round bead you get from the end of the clipped-off nozzle). He lets it fully cure prior to installing the headers and has never had a failure. I did something similar on my 440 Six Pack w/long-tube headers long before I knew him, but I put similar beads on both sides of a header gasket with the same curing procedure. I never had a failure on that engine again, having had at least three burn previously. Installation was a bit of a pain, though. Again, though, I didn't do that on the W2 TTi headers (thought about it during installation but I just wanted them in, damn it). I just used the gaskets provided and did not have an issue, possibly owing to greater flange thickness than the Hedmans on the 440+6. Also possible: The W2 heads were brand new, where the heads on the 440 were well-used originals, possibly pitted on the exhaust-gasket surfaces.
I stopped using lock washers after the first gasket failure in the 440. The temperature had annealed the "spring" right out of them. They were simply split flat washers upon removal, meaning they were doing nothing. After that I used Stage 8 locking bolts, but I got tired of dealing with 'em when a gasket failed. When I switched to the RTV-reinforced gaskets I went back to standard shouldered-hex Mr. Gasket bolts. They never loosened in approximately 10,000 miles of driving. The Stage 8 stuff is very nice, but costly and a bit of a hassle to remove/reinstall repeatedly.
Just a few things to consider based on what has and has not worked well for me over the years.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
I took the stud out of the first hole and got the DS header hung, so I put the stud back in and it's effectively a bolt now.
I put the torque wrench on the first hole on the PS that had come with a stud in it and has thread problems. I even marked the stud to convince myself it wasn't just turning in the hole. After putting another full turn on it, I chickened out. I could just see it popping that last good thread.
The starter went on from underneath, no problem at all.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kGgaznppXOo45WCtQI2PEflbLXwXOfFu/view?usp=sharing
I put a pair of standardcollectors reducers on it. The PS points almost straight down at the ground.
Is getting burned valves from running headers without a head pipe an old wife's tale? When I was young I ran a road runner uncapped for a year or more and never had a problem. I wonder if the short Tri-Y design would make a difference.
I had never heard about spark plug problems with the Schmacher headers, but sure enough, #7 is so close to the tube that I ended up with the plug socket wedged tight. There's air between the tube and the plug boot, but not much.
I put a dipstick in too. I sanded way too long then broke out the die grinder and roloc, then switched back to sandpaper to make it round. The chrome has got to go for the cheap repops to fit.
I have always used Permatex thread sealant with good luck.
I put the torque wrench on the first hole on the PS that had come with a stud in it and has thread problems. I even marked the stud to convince myself it wasn't just turning in the hole. After putting another full turn on it, I chickened out. I could just see it popping that last good thread.
The starter went on from underneath, no problem at all.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kGgaznppXOo45WCtQI2PEflbLXwXOfFu/view?usp=sharing
I put a pair of standard
Is getting burned valves from running headers without a head pipe an old wife's tale? When I was young I ran a road runner uncapped for a year or more and never had a problem. I wonder if the short Tri-Y design would make a difference.
I had never heard about spark plug problems with the Schmacher headers, but sure enough, #7 is so close to the tube that I ended up with the plug socket wedged tight. There's air between the tube and the plug boot, but not much.
I put a dipstick in too. I sanded way too long then broke out the die grinder and roloc, then switched back to sandpaper to make it round. The chrome has got to go for the cheap repops to fit.
I have always used Permatex thread sealant with good luck.
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Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
I got distracted by the header stuff and forgot to reply to this post.
One big problem I see with the Powermaster is that it does not have the bellhousing pilot to ensure correct alignment between the starter drive and flywheel. Not only does that allow greater deflection of the starter's shaft, it's lacking the bushing in the pilot that eases the load on the rear bearing inside the starter housing. Since more deflection = more load on the rear bearing, it's a downward spiral. I would not expect particularly great life from the starter, with shaft bind being a failure mode.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
Absolutely. It makes no sense except maybe from the manufacturer's POV (Profit Oriented Vending)
What do you think about burning valves with uncapped headers?
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
I think it's hooey.
It'll be fine running open headers. I've seen engines run with open exhaust ports that didn't burn valves.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
OK, just wanted to know in case you had missed that.
Covid has quit kicking my ass so I'll be back out there tonight. That car's got to move. I'm starting to have dreams about the resto shop guy showing up here to get the A12 and I've still got a Duster in the way.
Covid has quit kicking my ass so I'll be back out there tonight. That car's got to move. I'm starting to have dreams about the resto shop guy showing up here to get the A12 and I've still got a Duster in the way.
thrashingcows
Drowning deep in my sea of loathing...so I'm
My brother had an old Ford F250 with a 352 in it and he ran that thing with no exhaust pipes just the log manifolds...never bent or burnt a valve in the months of driving that thing. It did cook the paint off the firewall though!
b-body-bob
Well-known member
I decided to try something a little different with the fan when I put it back on. Prior it had a 1" spacer so the fan was so close to the radiator that I could barely get a wrench in there to tighten it up. Last night I left the spacer out and found the fan is still within the shroud. I have read people posting that the fan needs to be half in half out of the shroud for best performance and that's about where it is. Maybe it will help.
Note I also gave up on those tiny #10 screws to hold the shroud on the radiator and switched to zip ties. They work just fine for that job and are far less hassle.
Note I also gave up on those tiny #10 screws to hold the shroud on the radiator and switched to zip ties. They work just fine for that job and are far less hassle.
thrashingcows
Drowning deep in my sea of loathing...so I'm
Fan looks about right to me now...with a 1" spacer it was probably to far inside the shroud and you were just spinning air and not actualy pulling air through the radiator when idling.
74DartSport
has asparagus pee
I’d worry about those zip ties getting cut by the combination of vibration and the edge of metal.
Maybe just change them as part of maintenance?
Maybe just change them as part of maintenance?
b-body-bob
Well-known member
Yeah I know what you mean. That was part of why I wrapped them all the way around the shroud instead of trying to get fancy and wrap them so the only go in and out of the holes intended. The way they are there's fewer places where the tie touches the bracket. I was also wishing I would've used more than one per hole, just in case.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
I don't think I'd use the zip ties permanently. I think they're fine whilst you're still working on it, since God knows I've said "OK, done with that part" then had to disassemble whatever part five more times during the course of building a car. If it has to come off a few more times, and it may well, the zip ties are easily removed and replaced.
Having said that, I haven't really trusted a zip tie in automotive use unless it was metal or simply bundling wire, and some plastics don't react well to heat cycling . When you've reached the point of regularly using the car to take B-Body-Babe for ice cream or going to cruises, I'd strongly suggest reinstalling the bolts. If one zip tie breaks, you'll probably have a domino effect on at least one more. Ever see a fan go all jujitsu on a shroud and shred the radiator? It happens.
Having said that, I haven't really trusted a zip tie in automotive use unless it was metal or simply bundling wire, and some plastics don't react well to heat cycling . When you've reached the point of regularly using the car to take B-Body-Babe for ice cream or going to cruises, I'd strongly suggest reinstalling the bolts. If one zip tie breaks, you'll probably have a domino effect on at least one more. Ever see a fan go all jujitsu on a shroud and shred the radiator? It happens.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
I don't have to see it to imagine it.
The shroud was zip tied on a couple of cars I used to have. One one of them I had planted an electric fan inside the shroud and it worked better than it should have.
I know there is a difference between white zip ties and colored ones in that one won't stand UV exposure. Buyer’s Guide – Outdoor (UV Resistant) Zip Ties
The ones I used aren't from harbor freight but I didn't pay attention to the packaging to see if it mentioned anything in particular. I did save the u-nuts that came off the bracket so they can go back on if necessary. They're tiny little bastards, #10 screw IIRC.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
Well I waited long enough, have a fresh can of starting ether, tried to start it, no spark. Hooray.
Checked for spark with a timing light. Only 5v to the coil with ballast connected and the key in the run position. I checked the ballast and it was showing about .9 ohms less whatever's inherent in the meter. Seems to be about .1 but there's no way to really tell AFAIK. It has a new ECU on it. I don't know what the hell is wrong now. Yes the rotor is on the distributor and the coil wire is on.
I'm not sure how to start eliminating problems. Maybe try the last ECU that was on it before I took it apart when it would almost start. Then replace the coil, if I can trust the other one I've got is any good.
It also has a fuel leak where the rubber connects to the carb hard line, so it may be for the best it's not sparking. I guess it's been apart one time too many or something. The best way to fix the fuel leak is to finally bend up a piece of hardline between the fuel pump and carb and it's too hot to start fighting with that. Maybe tomorrow.
One of these days I'll figure out what I get out of this "hobby" beside frustration. Maybe not.
Checked for spark with a timing light. Only 5v to the coil with ballast connected and the key in the run position. I checked the ballast and it was showing about .9 ohms less whatever's inherent in the meter. Seems to be about .1 but there's no way to really tell AFAIK. It has a new ECU on it. I don't know what the hell is wrong now. Yes the rotor is on the distributor and the coil wire is on.
I'm not sure how to start eliminating problems. Maybe try the last ECU that was on it before I took it apart when it would almost start. Then replace the coil, if I can trust the other one I've got is any good. It also has a fuel leak where the rubber connects to the carb hard line, so it may be for the best it's not sparking. I guess it's been apart one time too many or something. The best way to fix the fuel leak is to finally bend up a piece of hardline between the fuel pump and carb and it's too hot to start fighting with that. Maybe tomorrow.
One of these days I'll figure out what I get out of this "hobby" beside frustration. Maybe not.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
Did you check the actual battery voltage, both static and under load (cranking), right at the posts? When measuring coil voltage, what was your grounding point?
I would start by checking circuit resistances. You've got .9 ohms across the ballast, but what's the resistance between the 12V+ side of the ballast and the + terminal of the coil? Are you getting the same or very similar reading when you measure voltage across the battery terminals v. between ballast 12V+ and battery (-) right on the post? Have you checked the resistances of your primary battery cables, including the small lead that goes to the starter relay? Two things that jump immediately to mind: the ignition switch connector at the column and the bulkhead disconnect. Take 'em apart and make sure you've got clean, solid connections at both. It's not uncommon to find the column connector burned nearly in half due to resistance heat, nor is it rare to have bulkhead corrosion which may also show signs of heat.
The ECU triggers the negative side of the coil, not the positive. Coil positive is a straight shot back to the battery by way of the ballast resistor and ignition switch so the ECU should have no bearing on the voltage reading at the coil. If you put a jumper wire across the ballast, you should be within a couple of tenths of straight battery voltage. That being said, the negative side affects the voltage at the coil too. That's why I suggested testing your negative battery cable for resistance--it's all a circuit, so resistance through the negative cable affects the positive reading unless your testing right at the negative battery post. Even with 5V at the coil, you should get some spark--probably very weak yellow spark--but unless the plugs are dirty I'd expect to see something. The coil increases battery voltage by a factor of well over 2,500--I'd think even a 5V feed should create enough volts to cross a .035" gap. Have you tried a screwdriver in the plug wire with the screwdriver shaft near a known-good ground, or are you just watching a used plug? If you don't have a new plug handy, use a point file, sandpaper, or steal one of B-body-babe's emery boards, clean a plug, re-gap it to .035" and try the spark test again... the darker you can have it in there, the better.
I would start by checking circuit resistances. You've got .9 ohms across the ballast, but what's the resistance between the 12V+ side of the ballast and the + terminal of the coil? Are you getting the same or very similar reading when you measure voltage across the battery terminals v. between ballast 12V+ and battery (-) right on the post? Have you checked the resistances of your primary battery cables, including the small lead that goes to the starter relay? Two things that jump immediately to mind: the ignition switch connector at the column and the bulkhead disconnect. Take 'em apart and make sure you've got clean, solid connections at both. It's not uncommon to find the column connector burned nearly in half due to resistance heat, nor is it rare to have bulkhead corrosion which may also show signs of heat.
The ECU triggers the negative side of the coil, not the positive. Coil positive is a straight shot back to the battery by way of the ballast resistor and ignition switch so the ECU should have no bearing on the voltage reading at the coil. If you put a jumper wire across the ballast, you should be within a couple of tenths of straight battery voltage. That being said, the negative side affects the voltage at the coil too. That's why I suggested testing your negative battery cable for resistance--it's all a circuit, so resistance through the negative cable affects the positive reading unless your testing right at the negative battery post. Even with 5V at the coil, you should get some spark--probably very weak yellow spark--but unless the plugs are dirty I'd expect to see something. The coil increases battery voltage by a factor of well over 2,500--I'd think even a 5V feed should create enough volts to cross a .035" gap. Have you tried a screwdriver in the plug wire with the screwdriver shaft near a known-good ground, or are you just watching a used plug? If you don't have a new plug handy, use a point file, sandpaper, or steal one of B-body-babe's emery boards, clean a plug, re-gap it to .035" and try the spark test again... the darker you can have it in there, the better.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
The first thing I need to check is if there's 12v to the ECU. I forgot about that until later.
The battery is fully charged. The starter spins like crazy, actually a lot better than the other starter ever did. I don't think it's the battery or the battery cables.
I had the column out, didn't notice anything wrong with the connection there. I need to check the bulkhead
I checked the spark with a known good timing light. The plugs are all new.
The coil voltage is between the coil and battery -. voltage is ~12v at the ballast. Likely another bad connection between there and the coil causing a voltage drop. IIRC when the whole "won't start" problem started before the starter went out, I didn't get full voltage at the coil even with the ballast bypassed. Then it would try to start but wouldn't run. I had been changing jets so that led me down the wrong road when out of the blue it wouldn't start.
The battery is fully charged. The starter spins like crazy, actually a lot better than the other starter ever did. I don't think it's the battery or the battery cables.
I had the column out, didn't notice anything wrong with the connection there. I need to check the bulkhead
I checked the spark with a known good timing light. The plugs are all new.
The coil voltage is between the coil and battery -. voltage is ~12v at the ballast. Likely another bad connection between there and the coil causing a voltage drop. IIRC when the whole "won't start" problem started before the starter went out, I didn't get full voltage at the coil even with the ballast bypassed. Then it would try to start but wouldn't run. I had been changing jets so that led me down the wrong road when out of the blue it wouldn't start.
b-body-bob
Well-known member
Well I do have voltage to the ECU so that's not the problem.
I got distracted chasing the voltage drop and didn't fix a thing last night. I took the bulkhead connector out and took a wire brush and contact cleaner to the male side and contact cleaner and a blow gun to the female side but there was no improvement. It did have some crud in it but not much so I didn't expect it to fix anything but had hope anyway.
Measuring the voltage at the battery and at the alternator, there's about a 1/2 volt drop and it's down about 1 volt at the ECU IIRC
At one point I smelled hot electronics while I had the battery connected and the key on - could have been my imagination - but I disconnected everything and quit at that point. I felt the wires at the battery and alternator but didn't feel anything hot. An electrical fire would absolutely make my day.
I keep remembering the weird clicking that tach drive distributor did with the key on and the engine not running ... I don't know what caused it so I don't know if there's something going on that is causing all this hassle, but it keeps coming back to mind. Nothing like that has happened with the distributor that's in it now.
I'm going to try a different ECU tonight, and maybe connect the timing light to the coil wire instead of a plug wire to see if there's something gone wrong inside the distributor.
I got distracted chasing the voltage drop and didn't fix a thing last night. I took the bulkhead connector out and took a wire brush and contact cleaner to the male side and contact cleaner and a blow gun to the female side but there was no improvement. It did have some crud in it but not much so I didn't expect it to fix anything but had hope anyway.
Measuring the voltage at the battery and at the alternator, there's about a 1/2 volt drop and it's down about 1 volt at the ECU IIRC
At one point I smelled hot electronics while I had the battery connected and the key on - could have been my imagination - but I disconnected everything and quit at that point. I felt the wires at the battery and alternator but didn't feel anything hot. An electrical fire would absolutely make my day.
I keep remembering the weird clicking that tach drive distributor did with the key on and the engine not running ... I don't know what caused it so I don't know if there's something going on that is causing all this hassle, but it keeps coming back to mind. Nothing like that has happened with the distributor that's in it now.
I'm going to try a different ECU tonight, and maybe connect the timing light to the coil wire instead of a plug wire to see if there's something gone wrong inside the distributor.