My 71 Duster work in progress

[Dr.Jass]

I don't see how they could hit, since the instant the rocker moves so does the valve. Having said that, I'd pull that rocker shaft and look at the bottoms of the rockers for witness marks just to be sure. You won't have to mess with your preload; it's no different than taking off factory stamped arms. It'll give you an opportunity to look at the adjuster balls, too.

Everything looks good and oily up there, so I don't expect oiling's an issue. Still, it might be worth your while to start it before you reinstall the covers just to get an idea of what's happening up there. It'll also help pinpoint any valvetrain noise. Lay a couple of old T-shirts on the inner fenders for easy cleanup, but a lot less oil shoots out than you might expect. Make sure your drop clothes are clear of the headers, though. Alternately--and with less mess--you could pull the distributor and run the pump with your priming shaft whilst watching the rocker gear. Just note the rotor position and mark the disrtibutor housing and block with a Sharpie to get the distributor back in the same place.

 

[b-body-bob]

look at the bottoms of the rockers for witness marks

Before


After

Half

The other half


Once I got them off I could see there is no way the rocker could've marked them like that. Any contact would be at the edge of the retainer touching the body of the rocker.

It is very weird that every one of the passenger side retainers had those lines but none of the driver side retainers do.

FWIW I backed off the adjusters so I get to reset the one side.

I'm still considering longer pushrods but sure don't see where they would make a difference unless I don't have the preload that I think I have. I've considered going 1/24 longer, IOW, give myself an extra turn to work with.

In other reading it seems like leaky lifters are a camshaft problem that people don't talk about as much as they do failed lifters and/or flat lobes. But it's not unheard of for this to happen. One guy was persistently saying that will stop if you pump them up by hand, that would imply they need to be bled or you're going to have this problem.

Make sure your drop clothes are clear of the headers, though

I'm sure there's plenty of oil flow there because the tops of the heads are flooded so I'll just skip the potential blazing t-shirt scenario.

 

[b-body-bob]

At least it still starts



It sounds like a /6 that hasn't had the lash adjusted since new.

 

[b-body-bob]

Less than a full day later and five of eight lifters aren't pumped up on the passenger side. They were easily depressed but not loose so it sure seems like I've got a bad set of lifters. I mean, just listen to that thing run ^^^ they are not pumping up or something.

If anything, adding 1/4 turn more preload where I could yesterday made it worse. But it's horrible and will sound worse to my ears every time I start it until it's fixed so I'm not the most reliable judge of that. I'm gonna take that extra back out though because it definitely didn't help and I kept records.

I've got a cheap filter cutter coming today. If the filter's shot full of metal I'm just going to park it out of my way for now.

If there's no metal I guess the next action will be to start it up with the valve cover off, and try to figure out which end the noise is on. I've read to try to put pressure on the rocker using a hammer handle. I remember an uncle doing that on a chevy motor before. If no answer there it's pull the intake and look at the lifters. If I was a betting man I would say I should just go ahead and start draining the radiator now.

I have delayed dropping the exhaust because the noise of concern here isn't a header leak down at the collector. At least I don't think it is.

FWIW these are AMC lifters with the oil hole in the cup and came in a Howard's clam shell box that I held onto.

 

[Dr.Jass]

I've got a cheap filter cutter coming today. If the filter's shot full of metal I'm just going to park it out of my way for now.

Expect some metal in the filter--it's kind of a given after break-in. I also use a magnetic drain plug to keep anything I can out of the oiling system period.

If there's no metal I guess the next action will be to start it up with the valve cover off, and try to figure out which end the noise is on. I've read to try to put pressure on the rocker using a hammer handle. I remember an uncle doing that on a chevy motor before. If no answer there it's pull the intake and look at the lifters. If I was a betting man I would say I should just go ahead and start draining the radiator now.

One thing you might try, and I'm by no means saying it will help, is backing off the adjusters on that side to the point where everything's tight but the preload's not set. I'm not talking about going through the preload procedure and backing everything off to zero. I'm saying don't move the crank at all--just back each adjuster off until its lifter cup is not depressed a'tall regardless of where the valve/lifter is sitting on the lobe. Now you have the lifter's full internal volume available. Pull the distributor, grab your priming shaft and drill, and run the oil pump for a minute or two. If anything's going to fully pump the lifters up, that'd be it. Re-set your preload and see if it made a difference.

Look at your lifter package. They're not variable-duration lifters, are they? That thing sounds like my buddy's old 340 with Rhoads lifters--"misadjusted solids" is the best description I've ever heard for Rhoads' sound.

FWIW these are AMC lifters with the oil hole in the cup and came in a Howard's clam shell box that I held onto.

All Mopar non-roller V8 lifters are AMC lifters. Proper Mopar hydraulic lifters haven't been available in the aftermarket since the 1970s as near as I can tell. I've never even seen the '67-older B/RB lifters and pushrods listed in an aftermarket catalog, and I've been working in those since '87. Pre-'68 big-block lifters were shorter, requiring longer pushrods. Unless you specifically ordered differently, your pushrods shouldn't be drilled for oiling anyhow. That negates the existence of the oiling hole in the lifter cup anyhow.

 

[b-body-bob]

There are four flat lifters on the driver's side. It might be just part of where the cam is, but they seem to be even looser than the other side.

I turned it to the next timing mark, figured out what was firing, and adjusted the valves for that position. They went right back where they were in the end. So hopefully there is no lobe/lifter damage, just noise so far.

Look at your lifter package. They're not variable-duration lifters, are they?

No and they're not anti-pump up either. Just plain old Howard's lifters.

One thing you might try, and I'm by no means saying it will help, is backing off the adjusters on that side to the point where everything's tight but the preload's not set. I'm not talking about going through the preload procedure and backing everything off to zero. I'm saying don't move the crank at all--just back each adjuster off until its lifter cup is not depressed a'tall regardless of where the valve/lifter is sitting on the lobe. Now you have the lifter's full internal volume available. Pull the distributor, grab your priming shaft and drill, and run the oil pump for a minute or two. If anything's going to fully pump the lifters up, that'd be it. Re-set your preload and see if it made a difference.

Now that I've found four flat lifters on the driver side I don't know if I'd be able to tell the difference unless I did both sides. But I might give it a try. I've got a quarter that says one or more will be flat before I get things ready to start.

 

[b-body-bob]

OK I loosened all the rockers to zero lash/preset except for 2-3 that wouldn't back off that far because the valve is open.

After priming, I noticed that #5E lifter doesn't seem to pump up fully. I'm going to let it sit and see where the others stand after an hour.

I cut the break-in filter open and there was nothing exceptional inside it.

 

[b-body-bob]

I've now got 5 lifters on the drivers side that have lost prime. #5E never primed fully AFAICT. After about an hour and a half they were bled down, I re-primed and it only took about 10 minutes. That's not right, is it?



The cam came direct from Howards, IIRC the lifters came from the vendor.

 

[Dr.Jass]

I've now got 5 lifters on the drivers side that have lost prime. #5E never primed fully AFAICT. After about an hour and a half they were bled down, I re-primed and it only took about 10 minutes. That's not right, is it?

That's the problem... I don't actually know. I've always built the engine, run through the break-in procedure (not always successfully, natch) and driven the thing. I've never run into a problem like this, so I've never had to study lifter behavior after shutting off the car.

I was looking at a Crane camshaft for sale on a different board and noticed something on the cam card. At the bottom, it said "DO NOT ALLOW ENGINE TO RUN UNDER 1,000RPM FOR THE FIRST HOUR". That's the first I'd heard of such a rule. Did Crane die because they knew too much?

 

[b-body-bob]

I have never even noticed lifter bleed off until I put this thing together. I should pull a valve cover on my 440 to see if it has bled off after sitting for years.

You can hear the sound change when they pump up in the video. So I don't think it's a problem that they bleed off as much as it is they don't seem to pump all the way up.

It's down to 1 of 3 things now AFAICT:
1. Pushrods are too short. Several run out of adjuster threads right at the 3/4 preload.
2. Lifters are crap. I have to pull the intake to change them.
3. Cam/lifters are going flat. I should be able to figure that out after pulling the intake.

Tapping when the engine's cold would seem to be a symptom of not enough preload, but I have at least 3/4 turn on all of them. If I'm doing it right but I'm mostly sure I am. But it's also kind of weird that I measured them too short but then they turn out to be exactly long enough to get by. So I'm skeptical. Still thinking about adding 1- or 2/24 and re-ordering a longer set.

I don't think I've got lobe or lifter damage because the rockers don't keep getting looser and they would if I was losing metal. Maybe.

 

[b-body-bob]

Idea: Since I've got the priming drill set up, go through the valves again but before adjusting each rocker check and ensure that its lifter is pumped up. That should eliminate any error in finding zero.

Reason: I know #5E doesn't pump up to where I thought it would. If others are like that in operation, perhaps by design, then I would have insufficient preload and clatter clatter clatter. If I start with each lifter pumped up, maybe even with the drill running, that slack is taken into account.

 

[b-body-bob]

OK, I went over them twice and have it mostly together other than the spark plug I broke and have to replace.

This time I went with the tighten until you feel friction on the pushrod, then add preload method. I made sure the adjusted lifter was pumped up before adjusting and that the pushrod is fully in the cup. On the second pass I went over them all to make sure when the lifter is pumped up the pushrod won't turn at all.

This time I came up with barely a half turn of preload on a couple. Since there's a limit of how tight I can adjust them I'm not sure this is going to get me anywhere but at least it made sense to try. I'll find out after I get a spark plug.

 

[Dr.Jass]

1. Pushrods are too short. Several run out of adjuster threads right at the 3/4 preload.

I don't think the pushrods are short enough to be the issue, to be honest. If you're setting preload with a partially-bled lifter, your preload is almost certainly wrong.

I don't think I've got lobe or lifter damage because the rockers don't keep getting looser and they would if I was losing metal. Maybe.

I tend to agree with this. The 440 in which I ate the cam didn't start ticking until it had thousands of miles on it. By 9,800 it was smote and the lifter looked like a satellite dish, but I'd run it a few thousand miles with the tick, including my track visits.

Idea: Since I've got the priming drill set up, go through the valves again but before adjusting each rocker check and ensure that its lifter is pumped up. That should eliminate any error in finding zero.

Reason: I know #5E doesn't pump up to where I thought it would. If others are like that in operation, perhaps by design, then I would have insufficient preload and clatter clatter clatter. If I start with each lifter pumped up, maybe even with the drill running, that slack is taken into account.

It's worth a try. I wouldn't suggest running the drill constantly, but instead start your preload procedure. Back the two rockers on which you're working off until the pushrod literally rattles. Now run the drill for, say, 30 seconds then set the preload on those two cylinders. Repeat the back-off/run drill procedure at each pair of lifters you're adjusting until you've done all 16. It doesn't matter if they bleed down after you adjust 'em since they'll pump back up once the engine's running.

(You responded while I was typing the above, so if you'd like you can ignore it now that you've read it. )

Just for giggles, I decided to check the FSM preload procedure for small-block adjustable rockers (340 Six Pack, which is in the 1971 manual). It's described exactly as when your method originally setting the preload, however they want 1-1/2 turns on the adjuster. It's unlikely you had too much preload, since they're recommending ~.063". There's no mention of ensuring plunger position in the lifters. Unlike the MP valve-lash chart, their procedure does four rockers at a time with only three 180° crank rotations after starting at #1 TDC firing.

And before it gets mentioned, the T/A engine's offset intake rocker does not make it a special case because the exhaust rocker is geometrically identical to the 273 part. Trust me on this; I have both.

 

[b-body-bob]

I don't think the pushrods are short enough to be the issue, to be honest. If you're setting preload with a partially-bled lifter, your preload is almost certainly wrong.


I tend to agree with this. The 440 in which I ate the cam didn't start ticking until it had thousands of miles on it. By 9,800 it was smote and the lifter looked like a satellite dish, but I'd run it a few thousand miles with the tick, including my track visits.


It's worth a try. I wouldn't suggest running the drill constantly, but instead start your preload procedure. Back the two rockers on which you're working off until the pushrod literally rattles. Now run the drill for, say, 30 seconds then set the preload on those two cylinders. Repeat the back-off/run drill procedure at each pair of lifters you're adjusting until you've done all 16. It doesn't matter if they bleed down after you adjust 'em since they'll pump back up once the engine's running.

(You responded while I was typing the above, so if you'd like you can ignore it now that you've read it. )

Just for giggles, I decided to check the FSM preload procedure for small-block adjustable rockers (340 Six Pack, which is in the 1971 manual). It's described exactly as when your method originally setting the preload, however they want 1-1/2 turns on the adjuster. It's unlikely you had too much preload, since they're recommending ~.063". There's no mention of ensuring plunger position in the lifters. Unlike the MP valve-lash chart, their procedure does four rockers at a time with only three 180° crank rotations after starting at #1 TDC firing.

And before it gets mentioned, the T/A engine's offset intake rocker does not make it a special case because the exhaust rocker is geometrically identical to the 273 part. Trust me on this; I have both.

This is what you get when you refuse to quit. Good grief this thing has about kilt me.



I hear some tapping when I hold the camera near the engine, probably because some of the pushrods are too short. Maybe just an exhaust leak too. It still blows from under the passenger side.

I started it up with the valve covers unbolted in case I decided to lift them and have a look. It got pretty danged smokey in there before I figured out it wasn't a rich carb causing it.

 

[b-body-bob]

There's no mention of ensuring plunger position in the lifters. Unlike the MP valve-lash chart, their procedure does four rockers at a time with only three 180° crank rotations after starting at #1 TDC firing.

I saw that chart the other day and the last thing I need is more complications so I went with what I knew.

You responded while I was typing the above, so if you'd like you can ignore it now that you've read it.

however they want 1-1/2 turns on the adjuster

I saw talk on the web touting that but wasn't sure if they were talking about a roller or flat tappet. Didn't think to look at the FSM.

I'm planning to call the pushrod place and order some longer ones so I can add a little more preload.

The fun part of this was I started at #3 at TDC. I had the chart and kept track with notes so I couldn't go wrong. But then I didn't get the intermediate shaft back in exactly the right place leading to no start, which then cast doubt on if I was 180* out or not. There were no carb explosions so I didn't think I was. Then I remembered how to set the intermediate shaft position starting at #1 TDC and I worked my way back to set the timing.

No actually, the fun part was starting it up and not hearing it clatter.

 

[Dr.Jass]

I hear some tapping when I hold the camera near the engine, probably because some of the pushrods are too short.

Preload's preload. If you achieved your desired amount, the pushrods aren't too short. If they were, you'd bottom the adjuster before you hit the number. If you've got your desired preload, stop worrying about it.

I'm glad this appears to be solved. Between you and @RUSTY Cuda it's been a very stressful year for me, if only vicariously. It's a true statement, but a great reminder of how drama-free my life really is.

 

[b-body-bob]

I'm looking forward to hearing it after it sat overnight. Hopefully the clatter won't be back. Yes I know it shouldn't, yes I still wonder.

it's been a very stressful year for me

It could be worse. I've got radiation therapy starting this month.

I wouldn't say this job has really stressed me out but it has sure pissed me off more than a few times. Mostly disgust at having to do things over and over, but I think it's over now until I grenade it. Speaking of which, I'm tempted to put the MSD in it to have a rev limiter, but I don't want to start messing with the wiring and introducing several new potential problems.

 

[Dr.Jass]

I'm looking forward to hearing it after it sat overnight. Hopefully the clatter won't be back. Yes I know it shouldn't, yes I still wonder.

Fingers crossed!

I wouldn't say this job has really stressed me out but it has sure pissed me off more than a few times. Mostly disgust at having to do things over and over, but I think it's over now until I grenade it.

When you're really frustrated, you need to repeat to yourself (aloud), "I do this for fun... I do this for fun..." It doesn't help, of course, but you find yourself introspective on your life's choices.

Speaking of which, I'm tempted to put the MSD in it to have a rev limiter, but I don't want to start messing with the wiring and introducing several new potential problems.

Smoke 'em if you've got 'em? I think I'd probably leave well enough alone unless you reach a point where your current ignition gives you trouble. If that happens, go ahead and wire up the MSD.

I hate messing with wiring from the standpoint of cutting or splicing wires. Why introduce a new potential failure point, especially on 50+-year-old wiring? If you browse pages 18-19 in the Signet-ficant Other thread, you'll see I spent a lot of time on Agnes working out non-wire-cutting solutions for things like the electric fuel pump, electronic VR , tachometer, gauge lighting, etc. Everything I did can be unplugged and the car returned to stock, with the exception of the voltage regulator--the green wire was the only wire I cut on the entire car.

I've always given MSD products a bit of the old side eye, simply because of reliability. The really-old stuff seemed to be OK, but it seemed like their quality took a serious hit in the '90s and stayed mediocre for a long time. Perhaps they're past that now and worked it out, but that company's also changed hands more times than a dollar bill in the interim. I had a few friends whose 6-series failed, and for a long time every guy at the local circle track had two mounted--failure was that common. At this point in history, though, you have little choice since MSD bought up most their competition (Mallory, Accel, etc.) a few years back. I ended up with a Pertronix Ignitor III, not because MSD doesn't own them, but because I wanted the appearance of points--no ignition boxes anywhere, even factory-style Mopar--and the III has a built-in adjustable rev limiter.

It could be worse. I've got radiation therapy starting this month.

Jeez, Bob. I hope this is something easily overcome by said treatment. I need a reason to visit WV if I ever get to take my Great American Road Trip.

 

[b-body-bob]

Jeez, Bob. I hope this is something easily overcome by said treatment.

It should be. It's just going to be a real hassle and potentially a sick time. Nine weeks, 5 days a week, one treatment per day. Long time, low dose.

I need a reason to visit WV if I ever get to take my Great American Road Trip.

Come on down. I ain't going anywhere.

 

[Dr.Jass]

It'll be awhile... I have to assemble a car (any car) and get my license back. I haven't driven legally in over 25 years, and virtually at all in 17+. I'm a bad man.