Paging Dr. Jass

the car is such an oddball and aside from bolt on skins....id actualy put it back to its original glory..just because its odd....and honestly at this point im sick and tired of seeing faked high options...i dig the oddballs

cow replacement skins more often than not were stenciled and not stamped from what ive seen..verifyed on a body fish and darts, trucks and vans...i assume across the board replacements wernt stamped for antenna as it was easy enough to drill em
 
the car is such an oddball and aside from bolt on skins....id actualy put it back to its original glory..just because its odd....and honestly at this point im sick and tired of seeing faked high options...i dig the oddballs
I don't know that I'd put it back to anything. I think with the such a complete LA setup, I'd be a damned fool to put anything other than another small block in it. That being said, I'd much rather use a 340 or 360, with the 340 being preferred because not only do I like 'em, but the car could've been built with 'em.

Also, returning it to as-stock would require a lot of work I'm not willing to do. I'll get to that in a later post.

cow replacement skins more often than not were stenciled and not stamped from what ive seen..verifyed on a body fish and darts, trucks and vans...i assume across the board replacements wernt stamped for antenna as it was easy enough to drill em
Every NOS panel Kev got for his '68 Charger--and that's a lot of 'em--had the number stamped, not stencilled. He had an NOS quarter that was stencilled, but that panel was a production-line cast-off. They didn't install it because it was mis-stamped at the marker light hole.
 
One of the reasons I got this car inexpensively was because he said it was a parts car due to a bad frame rail. Well, here are some photos of the underside in the back.

This is the passenger's rear frame rail:

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Here's the passenger's side trunk extension:

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Here's the driver's side rear rail:

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...and the driver's side trunk extension:

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I didn't get any pictures up front, but I felt around and could not find any weak spot anywhere on the frame. The rockers are solid inside and out, as is the torsion-bar crossmember. This car is actually very solid. I know I'll find more damage, but the only structure I've found that needs attention is the driver's rear floor footwell.

Now, scroll back up a second and look at the picture of the driver's frame. Now look at the next picture.

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This car absolutely did not leave Hamtramck with a rear swaybar. Prior to '72, rear sways were hen's teeth. I'm assuming that part was also removed from the E5 '74, along with possibly the rear axle. Although I didn't get a picture of 'em, this car also has front discs for which it isn't coded. A close look at the engine shot on the previous page shows someone put the disc-brake master cylinder on it as well. So, this car was upgraded with factory parts from another car, most likely the E5 '74 360HP.

The interior needs seat covers and an AC dash pad, but it's fairly serviceable otherwise:

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I'm not actually sure what's happening with the front seats, as they're neither original nor are they from the '74. They're white and have the metal hinge covers, which are a '70-early '72 thing, and the upholstery pattern I can see appears to be 1971 Challenger. The OE interior was all black.
 
I'm trying to figure out how this car got put together the way it is, because I do not believe it was ever wrecked up front. The coolant decal on the core support is still there, and close inspection shows there's green paint in the areas where it's peeled away. Anyone that could've repaired that top member to such a degree, then replaced the coolant decal, would not have slapped wrong-year sheetmetal on it.

Right now, I've only got one theory I find plausible at the moment:
Once upon a midnight dreary, someone crashed their 1971 Challenger, possibly an R/T, and used this car for parts to repair their car. This car then got passed to someone with a rear-ended, rotten, or blown-engine 1974 Rallye. That person took all the good stuff from his car and transferred it to this one, including the disc brake system, rear swaybar, and judging by the red spray paint, probably the rear axle and springs (fingers crossed on a 3.55SG!). The doors, fenders, front fascia, gravel pan (valance), and hood were all originally Rallye Red. The fenders have mounting holes for Rallye scoops and the hood is drilled for "360 FOUR BARREL" emblems, and the door VIN decal reads "JH23L4B______". The "crashed '71" theory might also explain the different dash pad and non-original 1971 bucket seats. It's possible the person that swapped on the '74 parts preferred that year's steering wheel, but I'm suprised that the 1974's Rallye cluster wasn't swapped too.

There is one more mystery, though. Look at the interior picture again. The shifter isn't the original, which is obvious because it's some oddball hex shaft. More importantly, it's definitely not an E-body 3-speed shifter, since the 3-speeds use the same rods as the 4-speed's forward gears. It sits too far forward, which is obvious if you compare my picture to this restored 1970 3-speed car:

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The rear of the shifter boot in my '71 is about equal with the front of the factory shifter boot. All three-speed floor shifters were in the same place, as the floor-mounted 3-speed was not available with a bench seat or fold-down armrest. One grainy underbody shot shows what appears to be an A-body transmission under the floor, based on tailshaft length after the crossmember. I did not sit in the car and make vroom-vroom noises whilst shifting through gears, so I have no idea whether it's a 3- or 4-speed (I'm guessing 3).

Regardless of all the above, it's mine for better or worse. I will try to fire up the 318, of course, and if it runs OK it may just stay. If the spirit moves me, I have an E-body 3-speed I could install. I'd be much more likely to install an A833OD, though... and maybe make it look like the 3-speed.
 
the doors being swapped begs the big question..."could" you hit one just right enough to take out the doors but not mange anything "structural" or the latch plate?...i doubt it, and i half belive your rigth about the parts swap....
 
the doors being swapped begs the big question..."could" you hit one just right enough to take out the doors but not mange anything "structural" or the latch plate?...i doubt it, and i half believe your right about the parts swap....

I've got a 93 W350 truck sitting in my yard that would refute this claim.... ;)

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well yes cow, but i mean actualy mangle BOTH fenders and doors but not hurt the body or core.....wait..


hear me out on this one doc, its pulling out of a TIGHT driveway or between 2 parked cars and gets lightly tboned just enough to fuck it up from both sides...this would explain the damage to ALL the other parts..in fact its the only way i could see it being from damage
 
well yes cow, but i mean actualy mangle BOTH fenders and doors but not hurt the body or core...
Exactly what I thought.

hear me out on this one doc, its pulling out of a TIGHT driveway or between 2 parked cars and gets lightly tboned just enough to fuck it up from both sides...this would explain the damage to ALL the other parts..in fact its the only way i could see it being from damage
The problem there is that if you're talking about being hit by two cars, they were about to hit head-on had the Challenger not popped out. The odds against such a situation are astronomical. I also expect there would be damage to the hinge pillars and inner fenders, which there isn't.
If you're talking about a single car, any damage to one side significant to damage the other would've trashed the hood-latch panel and/or core support, period. They're the only things of any strength connecting the two. It would've also moved and deformed at least one inner fender. A single-side hit that would crash one fender into the door would push the other fender away from its nearby door. I had a similar crash in my '89 Olds, driver's-side hit ahead of the wheel. Both fenders were trashed, along with the hood, grille, and front structure, but both front doors were virtually unscathed. Had I been hit at or behind the wheel, the damage would've been similar but the LH hinge pillar and door would've been destroyed. The RH door would've still been untouched. The fender moved away from the door, which it still would've had the hit occurred further back.
 
I spent a good amount of time inspecting the car when I took the pictures, and dissecting the pictures themselves since. Right now, I don't believe this car was ever hit in the front. There are several reasons:
  • The '71 latch support is still in place
  • The '71 washer bottle is still in place
  • The horns are '71 parts in the 1971 location
  • None of the air conditioning lines are kinked, bent, or broken
  • All of the AC brackets and accessories are straight and where they were leaving Hamtramck
  • The only deformed sheetmetal I've found anywhere so far is the RH rear quarter
By the same token, it's got the 1974 radiator in it with the shroud missing (either year). The fan and clutch this car should've had are not present. The original battery tray is gone, replaced by a bad homegrown unit.

Those present a bit of doubt to my theory.

But, if the "mystery car" for which this car's 1971 parts were removed was a 340, then the radiator and shroud would've been a drop-in, had they been damaged in its crash. The same could also explain the missing clutch and fan assembly. A big-block would've simply required the radiator outlet to be moved to the opposite side, which was a $20 job years ago--exactly what had been done to my project '74 to install a 440. Why wasn't the '74 fan/clutch assembly used? It's possible that car didn't have an engine. The battery tray? It's just as likely it rusted away and someone fabricobbled a new one.

Here are some of the engine-shot photos edited to highlight the sheetmetal. Barring my crappy cutlines, I see no evidence of any sort of structural damage.

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The transmission remains the next real mystery. If it's in fact a 3-speed--which I think it is--why would someone pull a 3-speed to install another 3-speed that doesn't fit as well and uses a different driveshaft? I'm almost sure it's an A-body transmission, but even that's an educated guess. The only picture I have shows it's clearly too short to be an E-body trans, but leaves me wondering about the shifter and linkage. Exactly how do they fit?

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There's no way there's an A-body 4-speed reverse rod involved in the above photo, because it would travel right through the crossmember. A-body 4-speed linkage; this is an overdrive but only the 3-4 (long) rod is different:

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I'm very curious about the transmission. I suspect butchery of the highest order. That's OK, though--whatever it takes to fix it, I have all the parts on-hand except possibly a driveshaft. Hopefully the one in Flying Jerry's old car is OK.
 
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That's very curious Doc. Really cool, stripping the parts to fix another car seems the most feasible reason though.

I have a set of those rear sway bar brackets hanging on my garage wall.
 
I have a set of them as well tucked in the corner of my bedroom. They're for my good '74, which honestly might already have 'em. They still have the unbroken OE links on them. I couldn't remember if they were on my car and the price was right, so... :LOL: That particular excuse has been the impetus for so many purchases, often without the part where it has anything to do with my Challenger(s)... or Valiant(s), or Imperial for that matter. I also have the better part of a '70 Swinger 340 here, and I haven't even bought that car yet!

The way things are going, I should probably start getting rid of some of the '71-'74 Charger stuff I've collected. Either that, or I need to start ditching some of these other cars to finance an SE (or the U-code '74 yellow Rallye that's nearly a twin to the '73 340 car I had). I'm seriously developing a "save 'em all!" attitude; something's gotta go.
 
I did a big yard purge last week and will continue. Nothing automotive related went away, other than the old Ram wheels, a pair of tires I was going to use on the front of the Dak and another set I snagged for the trailer I just sold.

As soon as I get the Ram put back together it's gone. That'll leave me with the Dakota and the Valiant.

Valiant may also find its way to a new home too, haven't quite decided its fate yet, but it deserves better than its current predicament.
 
I'll be renting a couple of storage areas soon, which will give me two indoor spots for cars and a lot of components. I'll probably move out every engine except the 340 for the project '74 and the 440, along with quite a few transmissions and a rear axle or two. That will clear a ton of space in my garage. The cars will likely be a juggle between the '71, '68, and '69 for the time being.

I've been considering re-homing a Valiant, specifically the '68. I kind of hate to, though, because I've got a lot of cool stuff to make it a good daily (3.55 8¼" SG, big-bolt discs, fresh A833OD, new seats, etc.) . I've considered ditching the Imperial too, but there's still an attachment there that I can't shake for some reason. I dunno... flipping the '71 for a quick and tidy profit has entered my mind too, but I sorta feel like I'm betraying my deceased friend in doing so (especially since he'd turned down $9+K for the car).

Something's gotta serve as a daily beater. I'm a lot more inclined to run the '71 than the '68, partially because of the cool factor but mostly because AC.
 
I know your history with that Imp and can empathize with your attachment to it but to me that would be one of the first to go, at least for me anyhow.

As for a daily...I would choose the 68 Valiant since it is an A-body and would be a cool little run about car, light and cheap on fuel. The 71 Challenger is an E-body....and one of the coveted 70/71's at that and will always be worth more than an A-body. So to run the risk of an accident or continued rust out and deterioration from daily driving just doesn't seem like the best option for the car.
 
I know your history with that Imp and can empathize with your attachment to it but to me that would be one of the first to go, at least for me anyhow.
I'm getting there, believe me. The one thing about that car is that I'm into it so inexpensively, it's hard to lose on it. But, it's also a total project, moreso than when I bought it. It hasn't started in years, though it definitely would run.

As for a daily...I would choose the 68 Valiant since it is an A-body and would be a cool little run about car, light and cheap on fuel.
And that's exactly why I bought it. I don't love Valiants that much despite owning two, and of the two I far prefer the '69 model on style alone, never mind the time invested in the actual car in question. So to me, the '68 is a perfect driver. If something bad happens, no great loss. But it needs a lot. I don't trust 9" drums. I don't like the 3-speed. I'm not even sure I'd trust the 7¼" under it. I bought all the parts to change all that. I also got a complete set of reupholstered seats out of a '70 Swinger because even if I dump it without any of the other parts installed, the interior's just so incredibly bad in that car. It needs everything.

The 71 Challenger is an E-body....and one of the coveted 70/71's at that and will always be worth more than an A-body. So to run the risk of an accident or continued rust out and deterioration from daily driving just doesn't seem like the best option for the car.
I guess growing up when I did, the ultimate welfare of the car isn't nearly the concern to me as my enjoyment of it. Rust I can battle; bad luck and the actions of others are out of my hands. If I was afraid to drive a car because of what might happen to it, I'd sell it. Being vigilant is one thing; living in fear quite another. The former I can embrace but the latter I refuse.
Right now, the plan for that car is to get it started and see what I've got. The transmission will probably get replaced with a proper B/E-body 4-speed or possibly an overdrive. Other than returning the front clip to '71 status, I've no desire to do a bunch of work to the exterior. I'd rather see if I can revive the AC than change a quarter panel. Whatever's happening with it when the '74 comes back stops and it goes into storage as-is. Maybe in the future I'll get a wild hair and do a full-boogie restification on it, but don't expect leaps and bounds of progress on this one. It can stay a beater for the foreseeable future... possibly my summer beater, with the '68 as my winter car. We'll see.
 
Was back out to the car's current storage area last night. We aired up what's left of the tires and managed to roll it away from the wall against which it was nosed. The '74 header panel the previous owner's son is keen to keep has a large crack in it; I doubt it'll come out in one piece. As a favor, if he's not in a hurry, I may try re-'glassing that area just to reinforce it. He can worry about finish work. It's the best one he's got available to him at the moment.

I made a couple of other curious discoveries, though, one of which throws a ding into my "used as a parts car for another '71" theory:
This car's got a '71 bumper and bumper brackets on the front. The bumper's tucked in close as original, and there are no slots in it. Obviously I can't swear its original, but everything forward the rear quarters is 1974 sheetmetal except the bumper and brackets.
Though the front brakes appear to be the '73-'74 units from the later car, as does all the rear suspension, somehow this car avoided getting the front swaybar from the '74 swapped.

In a conversation with Kev last night, we came to the realization there are entirely too many 1974 Challengers involved in this saga. The car I bought from @v8440 is a 1974, and I bought the once-purple, believed originally red 1974 parts car along with the 1971. The '71 has the front sheetmetal from a red (E5) 1974 Rallye 360HP on it (including the door decal), and the complete engine I bought is from a light-blue (B1) '74 Rallye 360HP/4-speed. I have parts from all four cars, if not the cars themselves. My life is getting very confusing.
 
After chipping away a bit at the purple and some hot, steamy car-wash action, I believe the original color of the parts '74 was Lucerne Blue. The paint code is B5, but it's not the same B5 as '73 and older cars. At first I thought it was B3 Basin Street Blue, but that wasn't available in '74. It's not an early car and there's no data tag, so logically I think it's '74-'75 B5. Despite washing it pretty thoroughly, I forgot to get pictures of it afterward. A lot of purple came off in the car wash, but not down to original paint. While the paint didn't hold all that well, whomever purpled this thing was pretty thorough: They got behind the taillights and did the door jambs, under all the weatherstripping and sill plates, and some of the interior floor.

Here's what it looked like freshly dragged out of its napping place:

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We're pulling the 318 from Flying Jerry's old car today (shown in the above post). The previous owner wants that engine back; why that is I have no idea. He's getting a free A904 back with it, though. :ROFLMAO:

This car is bad... really, really bad. Simply trailering the car less than a football field this morning, the driver's side factory hold-down bracket fell off the rear frame rail. Mind you, it's stil bolted solid; that secton of rail simply fell out. While aligning it for the hoist I realized there's virtually no frame rail forward of the transmission crossmember on the driver's side, all the way to the UCA. I put the pad on the junction of the trans crossmember and front rail, but the car settled down to the rocker panel, which is sitting on the lift arm. Near as I can tell, the only useful metal parts of the car is the outer firewall and the core support.

The engine's a story unto itself. I'd pointed out to Mike that there were rust holes in the valve covers, but he insisted on getting it back. OK, man, it's your deal. While cutting off the RH exhaust headpipe, water started coming out of it. That drew my attention to the oil filter, which looks like a craft-show pillow made to look like an oil filter. Or, say, a filter that was subjected to tons of force. Y'know, like water expanding as it changes state. Sho' 'nuff, when I cut the headpipe the rest of the way, I nicked the filter. Water came out in a small but steady stream for almost half an hour. It was pure water, perfectly clean... in other words, it's not from the cooling system. Apparently valve cover holes are efficient inlets.

The little bit of antifreeze that did come out of the engine and radiator--less than a quart--was greyish with just the slightest hint of green to it. You could barely see a hint of green as it streamed out, but not see it in the bucket. Based on appearance, I would guess it was effective down to about 30°F.

I've no doubt the engine is total garbage. I'd mentioned that to Mike multiple times already, but he wants it back. One less concern for me, really. Pure water in the cooling system is one thing, but in the oil passages? That block's gotta have more cracks than the Badlands.

The shifter was a plow cable, routed through a hole in the floor. Its handle was a machine screw through the end fitting and wrapped with electrical tape. Park was all the way back, with 1st being all the way forward.

Apparently kickdown linkage is for pussies. Despite this, the transmission fluid was beautiful red. My guess? They tried changing the fluid and filter when the car stopped moving. "I don't need no kickdown! I can just push forward on the plow cable!"

The fuel pump's feed pipe was connected to the return line (for the vapor-canister vent). I can almost hear Flying Jerry wondering aloud why the car stops running with over 3/4 of a tank showing on the needle.

I'm not sure when or how the temperature sender wire found its way to the (+) terminal of the ignition coil, but that had to be a riot to watch on the temp gauge. The actual coil (+) wire was not connected.

I can't make this shit up, guys.

The taillights are in the interior and in really nice shape... one of very few things this car's got going for it. The disc brakes are intact other than the missing pins on the driver's side. The rear axle's a 489-case one-legger and I'm guessing a 2.76, because they all were. Also, it somehow acquired a factory chrome A-body fuel cap at some point, which I can put on the '68 to snazz it up a bit.

As a side note, mostly for @RUSTY Cuda, the seat-belt interlock wiring harness and override switch are still present in the engine bay, all connected as they should be, although the switch's button is missing. It does not appear to have ever been messed with or modified. The wiring in the area of the override switch is definitely unmodified, and it looks exactly like the harness you just bought from Year One. The car's sequence number is 207xxx--quite a bit lower than yours. That braided ground strap with the rubber sleeve is still there, too. It was bolted to a factory-looking bracket welded the firewall, with the other end under one of the wiper-motor nuts. The rubber end was at the wiper motor. Nothing on the firewall, surprisingly, seems to have been modified or even replaced, but that doesn't seem right.
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The engine is out, but we're taking a break because the other guys wanted to go out to lunch. I did not. We need to get wheels back on the front and put it back on the trailer, then load the engine/trans on a different trailer to return it to the previous owner. The car will go to my storage area, although I may stop by here to further pressure-wash it. There's still a ton of woodland detritus on the cowl, in the engine bay, etc.

I'll try to get pictures of all the rust damage later. Did I mention it's really really bad?
 
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She bad. She not nationwide.

Driver's front framerail. This is the good side.

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This one's got a bit of an optical illusion to it. If you click on it it'll enlarge significantly. Check out the change in focus that happens slightly below and right of center, right below that stick. That's where the framerail simply ceases to exist. The rectangle to the lower right of it is where the frame once intersected the shock crossmember.

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Further investigation while working on it yesterday shows the car was originally E5 Rallye Red, not that it makes a lick of difference. You'd have to want an E5 1974 Challenger 318/auto pretty badly to take on this one.
 
refering to either of those as "frame rails" is an insult to every framerail still in existance....the steering box and torsion bar are clearly all thats holding things together
 

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